The State of Our Union [And the fight to keep it]
A marriage podcast designed to encourage reconnection, through open dialogue about the topics that challenges most marriages.
The State of Our Union [And the fight to keep it]
Why Letting Go of Expectations Saved Our Marriage with Danielle Hawthorne
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What if the secret to a stronger marriage is not fixing your spouse, but learning how to release the version of yourself that no longer fits? Danielle Hawthorne unpacks the messy, beautiful reality of blending two families, rewriting expectations, and building a marriage that honors both individuality and unity. If you've ever wondered whether you're "too much," "too guarded," or simply stuck in old patterns, this conversation offers a practical and deeply human reset.
Connect with Danielle:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniellehawth
Instagram: @worthyofdignity
Website: worthyofdignity.com
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Thanks for tuning in! If today’s EP resonated with you, subscribe, like, and share it with someone who needs it. Connect with me on all platforms @karenwillcoach - and if you are ready to go deeper, join the community and continue the conversation inside my Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/loveandconflict" Until next time, let’s continue to fight for our union.
Good afternoon. I always say good afternoon. We never know what time of day you guys are listening. Well, welcome to another episode of The State of Our Union and the Fight to Keep It. I am your host, Karen Williams. I am a relationship coach, author, speaker, mom, married for 30 plus years. We'll get into that later. And uh, mom, grandma, all the things. I am so excited that you're taking time out of your busy day to join me as we talk more about marriage. This season, as you know, has been about the wives and how we show up as women of God and how we show up as um as our partners' helpmate and all the good things. As you know, I have exciting guests when um when I come on here, and today my good friend and sister Danielle Hawthorne is here with us. She's gonna uh talk a little bit about herself in just a moment. But remember, for those of you that's joining us for the very first time, this is the first episode you've ever heard. I recommend that you go back and start listening to some of those past episodes from um the beginning of season two. Again, if you've been married for one day or a million days, you will get something out of it. So before further ado, I'm going to pass it over to Danielle and have her introduce herself to you and we'll get started. Danielle, welcome.
SPEAKER_01Welcome, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm elated to be in this conversation with you, Karen. Like you said, um, we are like friends who became sisters, you know what I mean? And so I'm excited to be here. Um, my name is Danielle Hawthorne, as you said. I am a wife, I'm a mom, I am uh CEO of our coaching practice for the of dignity. Um I I don't know, I just am a lover of life and you know, just all things that, you know, center around our health, our worth, and our dignity, not just in our relationships, but in how we move through life in general. And so when you asked me to be part of this podcast, I was really, really excited because I've specifically worked really intentionally in my marriage to make sure it's one that is honoring of who we are as individuals so that we can be honoring of who we are as husband and wife. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. And that's so good. Um, you know, how you say how we come in, you know, we honor who we are as individuals and you know, so that of course we can honor our marriage. And we know that marriage just doesn't come become healthy all on its own. We are the ones that make it up, so we have to get healthy ourselves. Now, um, we are gonna jump jump right into the conversation. So today, fun fact, today is the day that you and your husband Mike actually met. And so tell us a little bit about that. How did you guys meet? Where did you meet? Who got down on one knee? And how did you know that that was your person? Yes.
SPEAKER_01You know, I love stories. Um, and I think it's probably one of the things that makes coaching so interesting and purposeful for me. But I have to say, ours is my favorite story. It's my favorite love story of all times. Um, and so Mike and I met in 2017 and we met on match.com. And I know, I know, I know. We met online, yes. And I, you know, like everybody else, I was scrolling through and I saw his picture. And, you know, I'm dating was not my thing. I'm not forward, I've not axed the guy out, none of that, but I saw this picture and it captivated me. So like hearted it, and that was probably the boldest thing like I had ever done was to heart a picture. Oh my goodness, right? And then he took a really bold step and he messaged me back and we started talking, and um, I was also really slow with dating. So people who tried to, you know, date or court me found out very quickly that they had to be really interested in me because I wasn't the one that was like, call me, let's get together tomorrow. It took me weeks for me to meet with someone because I was like, You I met you online, I don't know who you are. But Mike and I talked online for weeks before we ever met. But when we did decide to meet, we met at a coffee shop here in the town that we live in. And we hit it off right from the start. We like to say we started talking in that coffee shop and we have never. And so we met on July 8th, 2017. And every year on July 8th, we go back to that same coffee shop, that same table that we met at. And we did this morning. And one of the first questions I told I asked him was, Tell me the story again, you know, of you know, how we met, what it felt like for him that day with me walking in, how, and then I share my perspective. And it's just a beautiful reminder to never forget the beginnings, you know what I mean? Never forget how we met, what got us to this moment, a beautiful look back over our journey. Um, reminds us of those butterflies that we felt, reminds us of what attracted us to each other and what brought us together. And so for us, it's uh it's almost like a resetting, you know, for each year of our time together. And so that's how we met. And we got engaged in 2020 at the beginning of the year, and we thought we were going to be able to have this amazing wedding, and then COVID hit. That's right. Right. We were one of those brave couples that got married during COVID before there was a vaccine. A friend of ours had a beautiful garden backyard, and we invited 50 of our closest friends to witness us get married because we didn't want to wait. And so we did. And we celebrated six years of marriage and nine years of being together today.
SPEAKER_02So wow. I did not know your love story. That is so cool. Yeah, and going back, like you said, going back to that same spot, it's not even about uh, it's not about tradition, it's that reset being so on purpose with that uh, you know, with that act uh activity, you know. Um that is so awesome, Danielle. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01So you guys went this morning. We did. We did before work. Um, and we sat. And it's funny because now the folks at the coffee shop are like, it's today already. We feel like we just saw you guys come to know us. They take our pictures for us every year. It's really cute. Yeah. It's so cool. So and it's been six years. Six years that we've been married nine years that we've been together.
SPEAKER_02Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Now, um, and so I know, I know with with every marriage, you know, uh Rob and I have been married uh it'll be 34 years in December. And one of the things that we know for sure is that even though um, you know, we have a you know great relationship, great conversation, you know, all of those things that make for a healthy marriage, when we first started, that first year, first two years, um you I start wondering if I was married to the right person. You know, because some things, you know, once the the you know the the the butterflies seemed to um you know get overwhelmed by life itself, you know, the work, the kids, and all of that, because uh we blended a family, so we were instant parents, right? And so um with that, sometimes we we end up feeling, again, like we marry the wrong person because of, you know, whether it's conflict or we simply don't know how to um, you know, communicate our needs. I don't even know what my needs are, first of all, to communicate that. So share with us if you guys experienced any of that or what were some of the the challenges for you guys when you first started out.
SPEAKER_01Of course not, Karen. We were a perfect couple. We everything was beautiful, it was roses, you know, it was great. It's been great. You know, it's really, you know, transparently and honestly, we were both into our second marriages when we married each other, and we too were blending a family. And so as excited as we were to be together and blend our family, and for as much as we did to prepare, right? So we did premarital counseling, we had conversations with our children, we did the things that we believed would set us up for success. Um, one of the things we've come to realize is relationships are complicated and they're messy. And whenever there is humans involved, it will not go as planned, right? And so, yes, the first couple years of our marriage, it was funky. It was funky because what we know now that we didn't have awareness or recognize then was we were two separate families, right? Who we were raised differently as individuals, but then we had spent a number of years as single parents raising our children differently. They had co-parents, you know what I mean, outside of us. And we were bringing all of this in. Add to that, our children were teenagers and young adults. And so we had so many layers that we were blending in, in addition to the fact that, you know, we were now getting married and we were now saying we're one big family, you know what I mean? And so, yes, it it was rocky, you know what I mean? And if I'm being transparent, we're still blending, we're still figuring it out, you know what I mean? We're still navigating what it looks like to be a family, right? Um, and there are certainly moments where it functions and it works better than others. Um, and we've learned a lot along the way and we're committed to, you know, loving our children and loving each other and pouring into our relationship. But yes, of course, we definitely navigated struggles um at the very beginning of our marriage. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And, you know, Rob and I had um, you know, like I was saying earlier, we blended as well. And so uh for me, it was more of um, you know, trying to deal with of course we started as a military family. So, you know, we had to move to a different country and have to deal with that, you know, separation of, you know, bio parents, and then they the other kids had to stay with their mom and it, oh my gosh. It was like, okay, we you know, we we're gonna figure this out, you know, some kind of way. And yeah, there were still a lot of um, you know, there's still a lot of things that we cannot go back and reclaim because once the time is passed, it's passed. But there are, yeah, none of this just fits into, you know, it doesn't just fit into that cute little puzzle in a cute little package, you know, as we it would. Now, what in in the process of of blending, you know, of course, that was probably the most, you know, of course, the most challenging, um, his values, your values, the values of the bio parents, you know, what did that look like as everything converged and as the the transformation is happening for you, right? Tell me, tell us a little bit about, you know, where where were you emotionally? What were some of your inner conversations during that time?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, family is incredibly important for me. You know what I mean? And so for me, then I think the thing that I was thinking was like, how do we, how do we make this one big happy family? You know what I mean? And so we would do things like family night and family events and things to, in our opinion, like bring everybody together in ways that we had utilized when we were two separate families, right? And so those were some of the things that we tried. And and those things just didn't work. And I think we had expectations of of what all of that should look like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I will say that it probably wasn't until maybe year three or even year four where I had to say, let's with the expectations and let's find beauty in what is, right? Yeah, let's find beauty in who our children are as they are, without trying to, you know, shift and mold and piece people and things and environments into what we want them to be and see everybody and our family for what it is. And I think when I made to have this expectation, I call it the the family picture on the wall, you know what I mean? Everybody's got their Sunday vest on and we're all smiling and we have this, you know, this split second capture, you know what I mean, of everybody smiling and happy and poised and perfect. It's not real life. I mean, that wasn't real life when we were two separate families, right? Our children fussed and fought and didn't get along and we had to set boundaries, we had to discipline, you know what I mean? We worked long hours, we had stressors. And so the idea that that would be the case as we're bringing two separate families together, six people together under one roof, um it was something I had to contend with. And it was hard, it was a hard adjustment for me. Expectations of what things should be, I think is what caused me the most challenge in our first years. For sure. Wow.
SPEAKER_02And that's the thing. I I I want to keep reminding our listeners that um don't give up in this stage. Don't give up in the second year, the third year, the fourth year, you know, that time period where we call the seven-year itch. You know, don't give up in those seasons because we all have those early struggles, those early adjustment periods that may not work um or that, you know, probably won't come together as we expect it to. And that's the thing. We all come into our marriage with expectations. Some, you know, some we're able to verbalize, some we just have in our heads somewhere that all of this is gonna happen this kind of this way. And if we are willing to let go or you know, loosen our control over those expectations, a lot of times, like you said, embrace what is, embrace the moment, embrace if everybody's getting along today, bless God. We'll just we're gonna go with this. You know, because I don't know what tomorrow holds. I'm speaking to anybody tomorrow. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think my willingness, and listen, that didn't happen overnight either. That was an internal struggle that I had to deal with, and that revealed a lot about me and past things that I had to let go of, right? And so this transformation happened internally first and it's ongoing, right? It it didn't just go away forever. It's ongoing. It's a it's a continual journey of me checking my motivations, what's driving that, right? But what I will say is when I am operating in my highest self and I'm seeing each of our family members for who they are, I'm we're better able to serve them. We're better able to love them because we're loving them as they are for who they are in this moment, and not some version of what we want them to be or what they should be. And so we're better able to meet their needs. They feel seen, they feel love, they feel like they belong because we can see them. Um, and again, it's it's it's something we're working on. Like I said, we're together nine years, married six years, which means our family has been under the same roof for six years. So it's it's a journey, right? And I and that's the other thing I have to remind myself like Danielle, you're not gonna get this all today or this year, right? But it's this continual waking up every morning, choosing to stay committed to my husband, choosing to stay on my knees and pray for our family, choosing to see each family member as an individual person instead of, you know, that family member on the picture in the wall. It helps me stay grounded. It helps me meet needs, it helps me see everybody for who they are and it helps me be reminded that I'm human too, right? Yes. The expectations that I'm able to release of others, I can also release of myself.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. Giving yourself the grace first before we send it to each other. And as you're talking about the picture on the wall, you know, I know we kind of date ourselves when we talk about family portrait on the wall. You know, what's postable. Uh, you know, we have these curated uh marriages, knowing that that's not real life. And I really want this podcast to reach the people who can look beyond, you know, those uh, you know, well-manufactured relationships. And then when it doesn't align or when it doesn't show up as the manufactured version of what we had in our heads, then we really think that we are failing and that it's so far from the truth. It's just part of the adjustment period.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. You know, um a mentor of mine said at one point, you know, people are people and you're people too. You know what I mean? So it's this reminder that people in people be people in, right? And what we see in their social media posts, what we see in these, again, one-second snapshots does not represent what's really happening behind closed doors, but we can get caught up in that, right? And so I think that, you know, reminder to live into who we are, to do everything you can to let go of the expectation of what should be and lean into what is, because there is real beauty in that. There's real beauty. I have a beautiful family. And again, when I'm operating in my highest self, I can see it flaws and awe, and not manipulate or change it into what I think it should be, because they were uniquely and divinely created, and we were uniquely and divinely brought together for a reason. And that's what I want to honor in our everyday life and in our family.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. That's so cool. That is so good. Um let's shift a little bit. Uh, you talk about expectations, and um, I want to kind of jump into roles and uh the real some of the realities of marriage. And I know many women enter marriage with these unspoken expectations, and you know, probably gonna beat expectations to death today. But it shows up in so many different areas, you know, whether it's family, um, you know, how we communicate, the support, you know, shared responsibility. And so I want to look at what are some of the expectations you had as far as the roles of a wife and a husband. Um because, you know, of course, you you're showing up as this bonus mom and you know, bonus mom to to these young people, and he's showing up as bonus dad to these young people over here. You guys were doing your own separate things. So you know, tell us tell us a little bit of what some of what some of the expectations you had and you know, where are we at now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I will say I got super blessed, Mike, um, because we we don't follow the traditional roles in our home. We both cook, we both clean. He largely takes out the trash, but if I need to take out the trash, I'll take out the trash. You know what I mean? And so when we were dating, one of the things that we love to do together was to cook. And so we cook together a lot of nights. You know, it's a way that we kind of come out of our day, it's a way that we connect. And so we don't have these traditional roles and expectations, I think in large part because we've experienced what it's like to have to do everything yourself, right? So as single parents and people who've been single before we got together. And so I'm really grateful that when he comes home, he gets right into what needs to happen in our home. And I do as well, right? We set each other up for success. Like we meal plan, we grocery shop on the on the weekends on Sunday. We ask, like, what's happening in your week? How can I best support you? And we step in to support with that communication where we need to for each other and for our children. But by and large, the role thing isn't a real thing, it's not a thing in our home per se.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01I think when I think about like expectations that have kind of caught us, it is more in the parenting piece of it, right? And so I think I came in with um more expectations of like things should look like this, right? And I'll just be honest with you like I am, I was a single black mother. Raising two young black women. And my mentality raising them was how do I raise them to survive this world? Right. Yes. And so I was raising daughters to be, to have structure, to be able to take care of themselves, to have an excellent education. You know what I mean? And so we had rhythm and regimen and routine in our home because I was preparing them for something, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Mike, however, I, you know, he is really laid back. Like I enter situations at a solid 9.75. Like I come in hot every single time. And I love my husband because he is coasting at like a 4.2. Like, you know what I mean? And so what we brought in at the beginning was this like, how are we doing this? Because for me, I need a structure. Everybody has chores, everybody has things they need to do. You come in, you get your homework done, you do this, you this, and this. And Mike's like, I mean, if it gets done at the end of the day, it's fine. And what we learned over time, though, is we both have these amazing strengths, you know, that add value to our home. Over the years, Mike has shown me how to be more present with our kids and being with our family more. And I've shown Mike how to encourage our kids to have some responsibility so that they can be independent young adults with the additional responsibilities of having being members of our home. They cook, they clean, they do laundry. You know what I mean? So we've created balance over the years. But at the beginning, our individual expectations, we had to figure out how to navigate them. And it wasn't always easy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Because, and that's the thing, I I I knew that I couldn't marry somebody that was at a 10. I mean, like you said, been like ready, you know, we we're gonna burn this all down and start over, you know. And you know, Rob has always been up to this day, still just, you know, calm, eating, kill, uh, you know, just that real, you know, centering, you know, that I need. And um, you mentioned having, you know, even something as simple as having a family meeting once a week to see how you can show up for each other. I just gave that assignment to a client of mine, and you know, they because they they too are a blended family. And I said, hey, every Sunday, whether it's, you know, you pick the time, the day, you know, but at least once a week, you know, come together and have that conversation, how you can support each other. Because what's happened, what's happening in those moments when when the week goes unplanned, is it can get a little chaotic, especially when something comes out of left field. Somebody forgot that this assignment was due tomorrow and they need glue paper tonight. You know, they need a glue stick this morning.
SPEAKER_01You know? So yeah. You're absolutely right. Um, I think that's important to note because one of the things, I mean, we talked, I told you, from the moment we met, we still talk today. I think one of the things that we didn't realize until we were already much our gains influence and impact us and how we show up with husbands and wives. We talk about things like what do you think about money? You know what I mean? How do you want to handle the holidays? But what we don't talk about is the value of being in your home. Where did you see your family, your parents make money? Because those things have influence and impact on us in ways that we may we may not know how they'll show up later in our life, right? And one of the things like I mentioned to you before, when I was a single mom, you know, I was operating out of what I thought was right. And looking back, I'm like, Danielle was doing what she needed to do to survive.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And today I can look back and say there was nothing wrong with that, right? He made the best decisions and the best choices for her and her daughters that she needed to, right? And also as she got married and blended a family, that way of living was not needed into the season she was going into.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01But if we don't take a moment to stop and think about the different versions of ourselves that precede the season that we're in, we can't see what we're bringing in to be able to say, does this still serve me? Do I need it? Or can I thank that version of me for protecting me for doing what it needed to do then and bid her farewell because she's no longer needed.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes. Oh my God, that is so good. I I one of my guests um uh about a month ago, she she said something pretty similar. She talked about her um, you know, being married at 19, growing up in the DC area, where, you know, she said, hey, I grew up in the inner city. So when I had to have that hard shell, I can't walk the streets just looking, lack of a better term, just looking like a punk, right? And so that version of her showed up in her marriage. And that conversation needed to be had to say, okay, I don't have to protect myself anymore. You know, um, for Rob and I, the the main thing for us, and I say us meaning me, was how I communicated or the light thereof. You know, keep famous based on my first marriage, how I showed up in that marriage, what um, you know, how I was treated, the version of myself that um, you know, that showed up again to protect me in that moment, still showed up in my marriage. It's not like, you know, because those versions of ourselves don't go anywhere. They will come right along with you into the next relationship, you know? Yeah. And we had to have that conversation. And so it affected how I communicate in the sense of um, if he said something that I didn't like, of course I took it so personal because that's, you know, it's some of the descriptions or some of the how my ex-husband saw me, the words that he used to describe me, and you know, those unhealthy words. And so I would just internalize all of that. And, you know, hey, I don't have the bandwidth or even the language to even combat that type of, you know, that safety. I didn't even know it was safety, you know, once I um, you know, once I got remarried. But yes, like you said, that um there's a version of us that we pack up in that backpack and we carry it everywhere we go, not realizing that, mmm, no girl, we're going to the beach. We don't need coats.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. Right. Yeah. And I think, and I want to be really mindful to say, like, those versions of those previous versions of ourselves, I'll say in my situation, I didn't do anything wrong. You know what I mean? Like, right. It wasn't bad, right? Like I mentioned before, they were necessary parts of me. Like in that season, I was who I needed to be. In this season, I am who I need to be. But I don't know what the next season holds and if who I am today is and what I'm doing will be needed there. And so I have to be mindful of that, you know? But I want to make sure to just name like not bad, right? It's not bad. It's it's different. Just like you said, when I go to the beach, there's a way, there's materials and tools and equipment and a way to dress when we go to the beach versus when, you know, we're going to the snow. You need the right equipment for each environment. And so when we are transitioning into our marriages, we have to take inventory and say, you know, what what part, what equipment, what tools am I taking with me? And are those the necessary and right tools for where I'm going?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So here's a harder question now, Danielle, because how how do you arrive at that self-awareness to say, no, this, I don't need this anymore? How do we even get there? How do we even and again, not that that other version of us was bad, but know that it's not needed. How do we know that it's it's no longer necessary? Because the conversations that I'm hearing is, oh, um, that person is just unhealed and I don't have time for that. I don't have the patience for that. So how would you speak to someone who says, hey, but I was good enough for that season of my life. What's wrong with me now? That's just who I am. How do you address that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And it is one that I've set with, right? Because I had to at some point really stop and assess, you know, I was showing up in my family in my marriage. And I talked about those expectations, right? And I had to look at like, okay, I'm asking this of my family.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm getting this, like, I'm getting tension, I'm getting pushback. It's not getting me to where I want to go. Like, what's happening? What's wrong? And really doing the work of saying, like, I can't change them. I can't change him. I can change me, right? And so I think there's a self-awareness that happens and takes place, you know. I also think community is so important. It's huge. Um, one of the best pieces of advice I ever received was to build community with a woman who is in a season ahead of you, a woman who is in the same season as you, and a woman who is in the season behind you. And that has been something I've lived by since before I became a mom. And so having women in my life who were willing to sit with me as I'm sharing with them about what's happened in my family, for them to be able to say, Do you think, you know what I mean, that the way you raised your girls is useful for how you are showing up as a bonus mom? Or is there something else? Is there another way? Right. I think those are the two things. And then I think the third thing, I needed to get quiet. I needed to sit with because I kept looking outside of myself for the answer. And I needed God to do a work in me. I couldn't do that and I couldn't hear him as long as I was doing all the talking. So for me, it really did require me to strengthen my relationship with God to get quiet, not just to hear what God might be trying to tell me, but also what my family might be trying to tell me that I wasn't willing to listen to or hear before. And that has made a huge difference as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. So, oh my gosh. So I'm what is that? I'm all I'm the problem.
SPEAKER_01I am the problem. Well, yeah, and you know, okay, and so that was the fourth thing. So I told you. So it is self-awareness, it's community, it's strengthening my relationship with God. And I think the third one is not, it's it's being willing to get outside help. So Mike and I have always been transparent about using a therapist and inviting a therapist into our relationship for the moments when we needed additional support. We we would always say, like, we don't have tools for this leg of the journey. We need to go get some additional tools. And so we would get, we would bring our therapists in to help us, right? And so I think that was the other part, like being willing to say, I don't have the tools that I need and I need some help, right? So we got a lot of tools on our tool belt, but they may not be the right ones for where we're at. And so we have to be willing to seek help when it's needed.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01So I said that to say, oh, wait, I was gonna tell you, I said that to say, so in the in a in a season, you know, we have this idea, like, yeah, we're gonna go to therapy and she's gonna fix you. You know what I mean? And then you get in therapy and the therapist is talking, and you like, oh, okay, it's me. I hear it. Okay. Who said that? Yeah. Who said that? This was supposed to be about about this person. It is actually, it's me. It's me. They're the problem, but no, no, I'm the problem. No, it's me. I'm the whole problem. I'm the whole problem.
SPEAKER_02And and but the thing about it is we're we're, of course, so much easier to use the microscope and and pick apart each other versus the mirror and actually, you know, do that inner work, you know. And I know for a fact that when we do the inner work, you know, we see our spouses so much differently. You know, and we we just we invite them in a little bit more, um, a little easier, I think. Um and so even when we when we say, all right, let's invite somebody in here to to have that conversation, we're not talking about, uh, Lord help me. We are not talking about social media memes, one-liners, or people that have no idea how to navigate their own relationship much more. So we we have to be um, you know, uh aware enough to say, okay, I am going to be the big girl and the person that I invite into this conversation, whoever that third voice is, that is someone that means my marriage well, because that is so important that we're, you know, we're not connecting with people that um that will lead us off the cliff, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01No, you're absolutely right. I'm super protective of my relationship and our family. And there are only a select few that, you know, know a lot of people, right? But that doesn't mean everybody knows me, knows us. And so we do have just a handful of people, and it may even be smaller than that, that we really talk to about, you know, the inner workings of our relationship. And that is for that reason that you just named. Like we talk to each other. We talk to God, right? We talk to our therapists. But if we're going to solve any of the problems in our relationship, the best person that we can be talking to about it is each other because we are the ones who have the inside information, right? And so, you know, involving outside forces or friends who don't mean well for us is really a setup for failure and for more problems within our relationship. I think the other thing that we're mindful of when we think about who we talk to outside of each other is not just the meaning well, but are they willing to call us in, right? When they see us stepping out. Like I don't need someone that's just gonna, you know, point the finger at him, right? I need someone to also be like, okay, but girl, you that's that one's me.
SPEAKER_00That was you, girl.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Right. And those are the kind of friends I want to be surrounding myself. I don't need yes people in my life. I need people who love me and care enough about me and my family and my relationship and me as a mother and a wife and a child of God to be able to say, that is you, you are wrong, and you need to do the repair work there.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Um, I think is one of your recent newsletters, you mentioned that um knowing people and really no-no people, and that is important because um we have the again the aesthetics of of marriage, and we think our relationship should look a certain way based on what somebody else's relationship looks like. And we have not really taken the time to find out what's really happening in that relationship. Um, one of the things that I am uh, again, um vulnerable to, you know, to some degree, based on, you know, I said if my testimony can help somebody else, hey, I'm all for it, God. But at the same time, I want people to understand that what you see now, the harvest that you see now, that required some digging up, some, you know, cleaning, some removing of um weeds, some watering, some fertilizing, some pruning, which is so uncomfortable because you're literally cutting off branches, throwing stuff away that's not bearing fruit. And God is like, hey, this is this is the shape that we want this tree to take on. And the, you know, the tree can almost survive on its own by, you know, in a certain uh certain stage. You know, so as we are, as we're talking about um, you know, marriage, we want to be um aligning ourselves, you know, and I always say, especially in the church body, we want to align ourselves with um with couples who are honoring God first, honoring each other. We don't, you know, we don't find it comfortable for um, you know, for you know, spouses to say unc unhealthy things about the other one when the other one is not present or make them the butt of the joke and ah, I girl, I cannot stand that stuff. But you know, those are the kind of things that we're we're talking about because we I've seen it, you know, I've seen it, I've witnessed those things. So that's it, that's so important. Um there's um, I believe that as as wives, we we sometimes carry these um, what does it say, those silent struggles, you know, and you say, yeah, you and you and Mike have been talking from day one, you know, and you guys haven't stopped talking. Um but for some of us, that how do we learn how to talk? You know, how do we have conversations that, you know, that's healthy for the other person? And when the other person gets super um, super emotional or what I call it, you know, that that um emotional flooding takes place and the conversation is going left because nobody's hearing each other. How do you how do you how do you establish healthy conversation or healthy, healthy speak, I would say?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, I'll be really honest and transparent and say this is an area where I'm still learning. You know what I mean? I think one of the things that, you know, Mike and I have been having conversations about over the years is that I respect and love him so much, right? That I find sometimes that it is harder to tell him, you know, some of the more difficult things, right? That it would be easier for me to just stay quiet, not go small or diminish myself, but to not say, you know, some of the the hard things, we call it the last 10%, right? That last little bit. You said all of it, but you left off that one piece that you really, really, really needed to say. Yeah. So that's one of the things like we have been working on, you know, is like what's underneath that, you know what I mean, that's preventing it because it's never just the thing on top, right? But what's the thing underneath that that's preventing us or you or whoever it is, me in this case, from being able to say that last 10%, the piece that is like really the nitty-gritty thing, you know, that you need to communicate and say. And I'll say it's not easy. And I think it does have a lot to do in my case with hurts, disappointments, wounds, right? Scars that, you know, I think in a lot of ways we feel like has been addressed, but there's some scar tissue there, right? Like a scar tissue, right? And so it's in some cases a protective measure. Um, in other cases, it's a lack of skill, but it it needs to happen. And so it is an area that I have specifically been working on in saying, like, hey, these are the things that I need, you know what I mean? Like naming my needs has never been an issue, but like, oof, here's a little thing I'm struggling with, you know. And so one of the things I I've learned to say is I need to say something tender, you know what I mean? And that kind of gives me the courage to say the thing that might be a little harder, is if I can preface it so that he knows to be to hold it tenderly, right? Because it's already hard for me to say. You know, I'll I'll even say, like seed it and say, like, I need to say something tender, or this is this is a little difficult for me to say. So can you give me grace? Or this is cookie dough. It's not fully baked, but this is what's been on my mind, right? And I think that for him, it's his signal to lean in, to pay attention, to be gentle, to give me grace, to be curious, right? Um, because as his wife, I'm coming to him with something that is difficult for me to say, is uncomfortable for me to say. It's hard for me to say, you know what I mean? Because I'm still practicing saying some of these things that I need to say in our relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So without, well, and that's the key too. It's saying them with the respect, you know what I mean, that I want to be able to communicate to my husband with. I can say it. Like I can say it. We can pump right off. I can absolutely say it. But I want my relationship with my husband to be one where he always feels loved and respected for me, even in moments of tension and anger. Like we can disagree, but we don't need to have animosity towards each other. Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, been there, done the animosity thing, and it's just too much. It it is um, you know, this is the person, um, this is the person that I said I love, and this is the person I've committed my life to. So, you know, the things that I say has to match that, that commitment has to match that, you know. Um my even my my siblings, especially with my one of my older brothers, he always say, um, Rob really spoils you. And I was like, Yeah. You know. But you know, the thing is there, they're um, it's not that I I get my way. The thing is a lot of times, nine times out of ten, Rob is he's the one that will tell you, I don't want to fight over silly things. You know, if we don't, if it's not something that we need to really have a dis a big disagreement about, we don't need to. I mean, the the pink, the color we're gonna paint a room, no, he does not care. You know, um and so even you know, even just um little things like that, I know at times that will cause such a wedge in um in young families. Um you know, those feeling, what is it, um uh that resentment, you know, um, and I call it uh yeah, communication fatigue. Like I'm tired of communicating, I'm tired of talking about the same thing, you know. And again, you you mentioned earlier that this is not about changing somebody else, it's how do I do the inner work to show up better? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's yeah, and I think like I mentioned before, like we've both been married before, right? Yes, and because we're now married to each other, that implies that we've both been divorced before because that didn't work, right? So the intention and the focus is for this relationship to last. Yes. And so that means we have to give it dedicated time and attention and focus. We have to do things differently than we might have done them before because it's possible those ways didn't work, right? Right. And so it is being intentional about asking, what do you need? And being able to also name our needs, right? Instead of having the expectation that he's just gonna read my mind, he just gonna know she should do this because she's my wife, and that's what my mom did, and that's what my sisters and my aunt, you know what I mean? We have to get really clear about naming and having a level of communication that allows for space and grace for us to be, like I said before, individuals, because we come into this relationship as two whole individuals that have joined together as one. But we are still individuals, right? Absolutely. And so I have to be willing to say, here's what I need, here's what's rubbing me wrong, here's where I've been hurt, and also be willing to allow them to say the same thing and receive it in the spirit of these are the things that will make us better, and not, well, but you did this first, and I wouldn't have done that if you did, like, you know what I mean? And so it takes practice and it takes work. But it's being willing to say, like, I love you so much, I want our relationship to work. So I'm going to put aside the expectations, the shoulds, the things that will rise up on the back of my head, right? The hairs on the back of my head, and be willing to listen because I love you, be committed to this relationship and what it takes to make it work because I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And see, we have to go into it with that baseline commitment. If that's negotiable, then everything else is negotiable. You know, everything there's nothing, there's nothing concrete to build the relationship on. And so even um, even as you're as you're talking about that, we, you know, there's a quote that um my pastor said a couple, maybe a couple months ago. Um, he said, it's not about um, if you don't change, I am leaving. It should be I'm staying. So this, whatever this is, has to change.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, the commitment has to come first. You know, we we, you know, we have um, you know, we live in a society where, you know, divorce is just so, you know, it's it's it's easy. And don't get me wrong, both Rob and I have been divorced before. So yeah, we got it wrong at one point as well. You know, but we can get to a space where we we show up, um, you know, show up already committed to the marriage. I think everything else that we're, you know, adding on is just fertilizer and and dirt and you know, we're we're tilling all of that, you know. Yes, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness. That's so good. That's good. That's so good. Um, Danielle, on top of all of the amazing things that you do, um I want you to share with um, you know, share with the ladies um, you know, what you have going on with Worthy of Dignity, why that is important to you. Um, because a lot of times we, you know, you know, the businesses, the coaching things we do, the books we write, all of that was birthed out of the work that we did on ourselves. And so tell us a little bit about that, how you got started with that, and how can, you know, our listeners, you know, tap into this gift that you have.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. And you're absolutely right. Worthy of Dignity was born out of the work and the awareness that I've done for myself, but also out of this amazing relationship that I have with Mike, um, I, like so many other people, worked to build a career and a life where, you know, I had reached, you know, the levels in corporate and nonprofit world that I wanted to. And what Mike and so many other people around me were noticing that it was burning me out. It was toxic, it was not healthy. Um, and one of the things that I'll never forget is, you know, just Mike coming to me and being like, what's going on? This isn't you, you know, what's happening here? You know, and that kind of started things. And then other friends and family member would kind of come in and say, What's happening? You know, this isn't you. You're losing yourself in this environment. You know, don't listen to this. These aren't the words that represent who you are and who we know you to be. And I actually ended up taking a sabbatical and leaving. But what happened after I left is really where Worthy of Dignity was born, because I remember Mike's words to me, um, where he just really held up a remember, uh, a mirror and just really reminded me of who I was. You know what I mean? He was like, I don't understand how this environment was able to shift you away from who you were. Like you are someone who, in every environment you've ever worked in, you made it better. You know what I mean? You just did. And so, like, when you think about what you want to do next, what does it look like? You know what I mean? And so it was through these conversations that, you know, worthy of dignity was born because I have a core belief that everyone is worthy of dignity, value, and respect. And I watched in real time as Mike kind of through that time, through that season, as he and our family members really brought me back to myself in a time where toxicity and burnout and exhaustion and this drive to perform and produce for a workplace that was taking me away from my family and the people that I love and the relationships that I wanted to pour into was winning out. And he was the one that was saying, like, you say it, you wanted to be present for our children. Like, is that still true? And if so, what do you need to get back to that? Yeah, he did. He did, it was really loving, but he did, right? And so that was that question that he asked, like, if you could do anything, what would it be? And I was like, I want to be the person that helps other women remember who they are, right? Not discover because we've always been worthy of dignity, value, and respect. But I think the world will pull us away. It will help us, it will disassociate us from ourselves. So we forget, right? And we start chasing title and money and promotion and things over maintaining our dignity, value, and respect and seeing, you know, our jobs as a means to live the life we were created to live, not as the life itself, right? And so what I do is I work with women who desire to be reminded of who they are and help them make space to see and build the life that they want to be living. Um, and that's that's what I was able to do. After I left, I was able to live the life that I want. I was able to be present for my children in ways that I wasn't able to before, reconstruct a work, work life that was more fulfilling than the one I had before, and start a business where I can help other executive women really rebalance their life so that it actually honors who they were always created to be instead of the other way around. Um, and so that's the work that I get to do with Worthy of Dignity. And it's beautiful and it's amazing as I watch women reclaim their lives, you know, and stand firm, ten toes down for themselves instead of for, you know, all these other things that the world tells us is more important than ourselves, our dignity, our value, and the things that are important to us, our relationships with self and others. Yes. And so, yeah, so that's the work that I do. I do one-on-one coaching, I do leadership development for companies and organizations where I help uh teams and leaders not just do that for themselves, but to be able to lead from that place. If you understand your worth and dignity, you're able to see it in others, right? And so that's the work that I get to do. And as Karen mentioned, we have a newsletter and you can visit us on our website at worthyofdignity.com, or you can follow us on Instagram at worthy of dignity or on LinkedIn at Danielle Hawth. And so that's a little bit about what I do, and I love it. It's self-fulfilling. Um, and it's a reminder, you know, in all of this that we are worthy of healthy, loving relationships, right? We are worthy of love and abundance and rest and joy and laughter and all these things that God embedded in us already innately as human beings, divinely created. And oftentimes we let the world, right, and things pull us away from that. But when we say associated and connected to our bodies and ourselves, we can enjoy those things that matter most to us.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And like you said, God created those innately in us anyway. And so that's why we feel so disconnected when we're not fulfilling or being fulfilled in those areas. So good. Um, and I love how you, you know, you um Mike saw, you know, Mike knew exactly who he married. And he's like, wait a minute, something is happening. Me with my wife. What is happening right now? Yeah, yes, yes. Think that um, you know, being blessed with, you know, with a husband that is able to, you know, first of all, have such a relationship with God to where he can see right away that okay, something is off here, who's hurting my wife, you know, what situation is pulling her away from her true self. And that's important. So, so, so, so good. So, last question before we go. Um, yeah, for those of you listening, all of Danielle's information will be in the show notes. So, you you know, you have to try and write it all down. It will all be there. Um, so the last question I have for every one of my guests is what's one thing you wish you knew before you got married, whether the first time or the second time? Um for me, it was two different things. Right, exactly. Yes, yes. Yeah so what what would be that thing and you know how would you um you know encourage somebody that yeah I think it would be and I've learned this in my relationship with Mike, and it is that we can have the love that we want.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we can have the love that we want, like it's not it, it's not confined, it's not bound by barriers, it's not um dependent upon our path, right? It it reminds us what is possible. Yes, it's expansive, right? It is evolving, it's beautiful, it's spacious, right? It is, and we were intentional about naming what we wanted in this relationship, and we've been on a mission to to achieve that for each other and for ourselves because we deserve it. And so um I go ten toes down for my husband in my marriage, and I tell everybody all the time, it's two people that don't play about me, it's Jesus and Mike. And they don't play about me, right? And I feel the same way. And it's it it really is the evolution of understanding we can have what we want in our marriage, and as long as we're willing to work for it and choose it every day. Every day we get up and we choose each other, we choose and make intentional choices about how we can pour into our marriage and support each other and make each other's day and bring joy to each other's life into the lives of our children. And it's a choice. We get to do that, and we can have that. We can have that.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And I'll say this um, you know, when you know, when we attended your conference last year and just yeah, this was a women's conference, but Mike was just Mike was there, and we watched how he just even the way he moved around the room and doing different things and supporting you, you know, we didn't hear Mike, but we all saw Mike. You know what I mean? Yes, yes. So you know, that's so important because there's such a difference with that. You know, his his presence just, you know, you could tell, just brought a certain uh level of safety in that in that environment, you know, like Mike, the the the mic's not working. I don't know if Mike does the audio. I have no idea. I'm just like the mic's not working, or something's not plugged in, or you know, he was just like he was just at presence to to to care for those things, you know. And in in listening to you, what I'm hearing you say, each of us have the responsibility to write our own story for our marriage. That's what I that that would be my takeaway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's our own story. And I think sometimes we come into marriage and we're like, well, I'm doing this because this is what I saw, and this is what my parents did, and this is what I saw, my grandparents, and those are beautiful stories, right? Those are beautiful, unique stories, and we get to stand on their shoulders, right? And we get to write our own, right? We get to create and dream and author a love story that is unique and tailored to us. And I think there is so much beauty in that. And I think once we again let I let go of those expectations and really embrace that, it has really made our love story that much more meaningful and um adventurous and joyful, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. The time always goes by. I listen, I do try to make it no more than 45 minutes, but it never works. Danielle, thank you so very much for joining me today. Oh my gosh. Again, listen, connect with Danielle. All of her information will be in the show notes. Please follow her on social media. She has a lot of information and sign up for her newsletter. It is such a joy to read her newsletter. Again, until next time, on join me for another episode of the State of Our Union and the Fight to Keep It. Have a great rest of your week, guys. Thank you.