When Safe Love Feels Unfamiliar: Learning to Trust, Heal, and Grow in Marriage | Fatima Hurd

In this heartfelt conversation, Karen sat down with Fatima & explored what 17 years of marriage have taught her about love, communication, healing, and personal growth. Fatima shared how entering a relationship with her husband challenged everything she thought she knew about love. The fierce independence she held on to as a single mother, her struggle to recognize the safety, consistency, and emotional availability her husband offered. What felt unfamiliar, and even uncomfortable, turned out to be exactly what she needed.

Connect with Fatima:

https://www.instagram.com/fatimahurdphotography/

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Thanks for tuning in! If today’s EP resonated with you, subscribe, like, and share it with someone who needs it. Connect with me on all platforms @karenwillcoach - and if you are ready to go deeper, join the community and continue the conversation inside my Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/loveandconflict" Until next time, let’s continue to fight for our union.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 1:03

Hey everybody, welcome to season two, episode two of The State of Our Union and the Fight to Keep It. I am Karen Williams, your host, and today I am excited to have my friend Fatima with me. She's gonna talk a little bit about marriage and all the things. And like I mentioned before, season two is taking a little different direction. So we're gonna focus on the wives this season, and they're gonna share with us some of the things that they did or didn't do or learned that they should have learned or didn't learn. So we're just gonna have an amazing conversation. Fatima, please introduce yourself to our audience. Tell them a little bit about yourself, a little or as much as you like.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Thank you so much, Karen. Um, thank you for having me on. I'm I'm excited to definitely share. Um, my name again is Fatima Hurd. I am a mother of three. I've been um with my husband, or we've been together for 17 years. Um, you know, and there's been a lot of ups and downs, and you know, I I wouldn't I wouldn't take anything back. Um, I feel that's what helps us grow. But anyway, um I'm also a branding photographer. Um, I think photography has also been a way of showing me perspective when it comes to life. So that's the relationship that I see with it. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

And that's how we that's how we met. Um, because at the time all I knew of you was Fatima is a photographer. And then just to learn so much more about you. And and it's so cool because as women, that's kind of how basically that's kind of how we roll. We are so multifaceted. Um, so Fatima is not just a wife, she's not just a mom. She has all these other things going on as well and touches her community in so many different ways. Um, but for the sake of time, we're gonna dive into um, you know, just some of the uh the nuggets and um, you know, wisdom that she is going to share with us when it comes to marriage. As she mentioned, um you've been married 17, 18 years, 17 years.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

Together, 17, married, um, uh, oh my gosh. 2012, let's just say that. It's been a while. But yeah, we've been together. Yeah, it's been a while. I just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

And that's okay. And that's okay, because the the the joy of um of having a marriage, you know, beyond 10 years is that we've learned so much. We have gone through you know a couple of seasons, and so that that's what our conversation is gonna kind of you know center around um today. So you you kind of um you kind of jump into the conversation and share with the audience um, you know, what were some of the things that you you learned as a wife, as a young mom. Um, you know, you can share a little bit about the the blended family, because that's, you know, of course, we all know that that's one of those um, you know, you know, struggles or, you know, uh challenges that, you know, married relationships can face. Um but yeah, go for it. Share as much as or as little as you like about that.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Well, thank you, Karen. Um, yeah, so again, like I mentioned, I've been with my husband for 17 years. Um, you know, when we entered our relationship, um, one thing and one expectation that I had and made very clear was, you know, my son was my priority, you know. Um and what was really interesting was that he took that to heart. And I remember the very first um our very first date, he was like, you know, let's go on our second date, but bring your son. Let we can do it in a family environment, we can go bowling, we can do things like that. And so that was the first part of like understanding, you know, um it actually it kind of threw me through a loop that it was he was more focused about me and my needs and the expectations that I had to set. You know, normally uh at the beginning of the relationship, you're more about wanting to fulfill that other person's cup, right? And not your own. And when you receive it, I think that's when I had my first realization of the um the lack of safety that I felt. Um, you know, going to let me rewind a little bit. Um my previous relationships, I was very independent. Very um, and I think that when we entered this relationship, um I didn't understand safety. I didn't understand that he was making me feel safe. And that was a big struggle, especially when you're always in in independence mode, right? So when you know, when we entered when when he was open to that and he was open to meeting my family, it was too much for me to handle. I was like, oh my god, like I'm used to having relationships take eight years before it really happens. And this guy is going like full circle, like like within a few weeks, and I'm like, oh my god, this is just too much for my brain right now, you know. Um, because I had habits, and those habits um, you know, were habits I created. Um, I I would sit in relationships for a very long time. And so when I meet someone who is serious and ready to move forward, I'm like, whoa, this is just too much, right? Yeah, so I didn't know how to communicate that to him. And so, but I was also open to it because it was different from what I was used to, and but it was scary. But I I was just like, oh, this is so I don't know, how do you deal with it? But I trusted, even though I didn't know here, I knew it here. Yeah. That it was it was something that I didn't know then that I know now that I wanted, right? Was feeling safe. And so then um, you know, moving forward, going into the relationship, um, you know, there was a lot of, you know, a lot of stuff, baggage that we carry from one, what our environment environment models as we're growing up, and two, um, you know, what we carry from previous relationships.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

That I didn't realize I was bringing into this relationship. And those are are things that are not spoken. We speak about like how that person hurt me, but we never speak about what what we didn't do right in that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Exactly. Exactly. And I wanted to add to that, you you you when you mentioned um not being able to recognize that safety, you know, um, you know, I know when when we were talking earlier, we were talking about um we come into the relationship with with, you know, of course, bringing all of the baggage and all of the familiarity with um, you know, that we have with other with those relationships. And what's so crazy is we we are so familiar with uh I mean we can call it chaos, we can call it whatever we want. We're so familiar with that unhealthy that when healthy shows up, we're like, okay, well, this is different. You know, like like who is this guy being nice to my son like right away? You know, how come it it's taking, you know, how come it's not taking me three or four years to recognize that, okay, this is okay, we're we're in a steady flow. You know, so that you know, and I want the reason I I apologize there, because I want the, you know, I want our audience to to really hear what you're saying there. You know, it may a lot of times we when we enter relationships or into our marriage, we we go in with uh, again, with the baggage, we think familiarity is chemistry until things just started going haywire, you know. And I love how even though it wasn't the norm for you, you were able to say, hmm, let me see where this is going. You know, you didn't resist it. Why there, because there are others that were like, okay, no, I don't, I don't do this, whatever this is, you know. But you were able to you made the conscious decision to stay in the moment and just follow your heart and walk it through.

unknown 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Thank you for that clarity. And it's true. Um, you know, we don't know it at the time, but when we do follow and trust our intuition, it's leading us. And I think I've anchored my life around that. That, you know, if something feels right, you continue with it. Especially when you're coming from a place of the unknown. When you know where you've been, but you don't know where you're going. And then you're treading waters that you're not familiar with, you know. Um, my husband's very different from, you know, anybody I had dated in the past. Um, you know, he's very decisive and he knows what he wants, all the things that I'm not, and that I was very uncomfortable with when we started. But it was there was also this sense of excitement, right? And there was these this sense of like, you know, and I think at that point I realized, well, you know, if it hasn't worked in the past, you know, it doesn't hurt to try something new. With that though, came all these other challenges as our relationship started to flourish. Because, you know, he comes and I actually was thinking about this and I and at that point I'm I I don't I'm not coining this, but this is something that came in. It's like a little saying I'm like, um, that's when the two different when two different paths um came together to enjoy the journey, not the destination.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Because destination for me, life is ever evolving. You know, we're we're not destination is not one particular event. Our destination, it was going through the process. He's he didn't have any kids. So he had to learn like how do I how to be a dad? And you know, the interesting thing was I was like, you are from the minute you met my son, that was instilled in you. That was something that came with you. And I was just amazed as as at with his relationship with my son, even to this day, 17 years later, 18 years later, you know, like the way my son sees him, and he earned that, and that was his right as a father, even before he knew it. And so, like I said, going into the relationship, it was, you know, it's not I let go, I surrendered the expectations of where we had to be in certain places. Because girl, let me tell you the the the wanting to be, you know, we were always like, okay, someday we're gonna be, you know, rich enough to do this, not realizing we were rich that entire time. We're rich with memories, we were rich with the experience of being parents, and then my second son came, and then the birth of my daughter came, and all that was the wealth, the rich, the the riches of our relationship. But even like that, you know, we still carry, and going back to the emotional awareness, the hurt and the pain from the past that interfere with the present. And the big one for us was um, you know, was healing how to heal from that. And girl, let me tell you, the relationship prior to my husband, my my son's dad was such an incredible experience because there it brought his relationship brought so much contrast to ours that helped us grow. And now we all get along so well, and we always have, but the challenges of two different people trying to raise the same child as a as a father, yeah. And seeing take the best of both worlds and me being caught in the middle. And um, you know, it's it's when we let go of all the of the pain that we're able to see the contributions with his dad and and the contributions that he actually brought to the table. And then allowing my husband, or not allowing, but my husband saw that prior to even i seeing even when I saw it, because I remember I'd I'd complain about something and he's like, you know, let's just take a step back. Yeah, yeah. His dad, and I'm like, he always would ground me. He is my rock. And I would get that fiery, like, right, right, right, right. And it's like, take a deep breath. I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

And um, you know, at the very beginning, I even felt like, are you on his side? How dare you? Of course we think that. But that was the pain and the hurt talking from that previous relationship. And he's and you know, he would he would close it out with Do you love your son? Yes. What kind of question is that? So do I. But that's his bad.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, when you're talking about uh when you're talking about those, those um, you know, uh blended, that blended family. And so the non-custodial parent, you know, when your your spouse starts developing a relationship with your non with the non-custodial parent, what ends up happening is they get to see them strictly from the their whatever their perspective is of them. You know, for the most part, that that because that mature spouse, they they shouldn't just be listening to your side or your perspective. So the point is they they didn't have the emotional hurt, they didn't go through whatever that emotional damage or whatever that pain was. So they're not experiencing them from that perspective. So it it's even, and I say it's a good thing because then that doesn't get in the way of how the children are being raised. That doesn't get in the way of how they develop emotionally, but they again, like you said earlier, they get to take the best of both dads and become even a better, a better person. Because, you know, that's one of the uh one of the joys in our relationship was that I came to the marriage with um with a son. Um, my husband came in with two sons, and so we had one together. And yeah, it's it's their moms have always been about the kids. It's always been what do they need, what do they want? You know, there we we're not talking about these whatever these volatile dramas that happen in in these relationships. It's always about the children. And so it's it's um it's good to hear that that is more, you know, that's getting more commonplace where the children are the the what you say the the focus and not our emotional um whatever the emotional chaos we have going on, you know, in between us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

It is. Yeah, no, it is. And and you know, the interesting part is that the you know, the hurt and the resentment and the the disappointment didn't just end there, you know, it was also reflected in our relationship in regards to like things that he would say or you know, um, and how I would take that. And then it triggers their their triggers, right? Like, oh, here we go, right? And so, you know, the first years it was difficult, but you know, when there's this thing I call and I didn't really have the name yesterday when we talked, but it's called the love audit, right? And it's when you sit and you journal all the things that you bring to the table and all the things that he brings to the table. And one interesting thing is that it changes with the season, right? Because every time that, you know, we move forward, um, as we spend more and more time together, like I think I mentioned to you before, um my husband helped peel back those layers, allowing me to flourish and really come into who I was and not the expectation of who I thought I was supposed to be. Right. Which goes back to the independence. It's like, you know, I felt that if I lost my independence, then what would happen if we ever broke up or something happened? Right. Well that doesn't have to happen. And I don't need the independence. The independence is only needed if you really it's it's it's I think that is where the confusion lied, you know. It was like allow myself to be to feel what he was what he's offering, which was to feel safe and to love me. He's a family man, and I didn't understand that, you know. I didn't understand it, you know, in Sean. And so I think that's where it helps to really look inward instead of outward. Um, I think I mentioned before, like when we first started, and we would get upset with each other. My mechanism to dealing with it was shut down. I didn't talk to you for a whole week. Like, I'm not gonna deal with you until I am ready to talk. And you know what's funny is we never talked. I would push it under the rug and life would carry on. And then the same thing would happen and happen until it finally got to a point where I'm like, are you serious? Is this really happening again? Like we really nip it in the butt.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

And I remember during the process, um, you know, I was so overcome with pain and and and resentment. I remember now him always saying, What what can I do to help you explain or tell me what it is that's but bugging you? What did I do? Yeah, and I also go through that. What did I do? But I think we can explain what we need when we don't know what we want.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yes, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. A lot of times we don't have the language, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Right. Or the experience. Right. Because um, for me, like all this was new, like the love, I think I mentioned to you, the daily text messages when he goes to work and says, I love you, have a great day, that have never stopped in the last 17 years.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

You know, and these little things that I wasn't used to. And and so now, you know, becoming aware slowly with time, how I was showing up for my relationship. Because at the beginning, you know, like we said, it's the honeymoon stage, then the babies start to come, then your hands are full, then you're you're busy, but at some point there's gonna it's gonna be pivotal where you have to stop and actually acknowledge what keeps putting us in those same cycles, you know, and yeah, um, because I I God because I I know your story, so I like I don't know, I want to talk about it all.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

But I don't know what what role did um you know, we talked a little bit about this, but what role do you think that the difference in the cultural difference played in how you guys showed up or even how you guys processed some of those uh challenges in the early years? Because um, you know, I know for me, as you know, uh I've mentioned on the show many times, I'm originally from Jamaica. We're loud people, we show up big in all of our spaces and we take up space, right? Um, and so a lot of times when, you know, when my husband is around my family, he's usually just sitting back like, you know, like he's watching a tennis match, you know, and until he learned, until he learned the dialect a little bit, he had no idea what was going on. But, you know, he's you know, it it's it played such a um, you know, how we process things, how we, even how we deal with conflict, even regular conversation sometimes can sound super loud or, you know, like, wait a minute, what is happening right now? But so share with the audience a little bit what role you think some of those um differences in culture actually played.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Absolutely. Um, thank you for that. Uh yeah, you know, that was a big one for us. Um, as I mentioned before, you know, um being Hispanic, Mexican, um, you know, I come from a background where, you know, we use our hands a lot and we're very passionate and our voices tend to raise, you know, when we want to get a point across. And so my husband's very subtle and calm, you know, he's white, and he's just looking at me like, can you just tone it down a little? Because I'm it's just too much. And I'm like, but this is how I talk and I gotta get my point across. And actually, you know, I think that's. were the part of the cultural, you know, like um I remember growing up, my mom would do the same thing. Like when she would be, you know, trying to get her point across, it was like she was loud. And so I remember with time, he would just zone out. Yeah. It was like, we're too much right now, you know? And he's just on like, what? What and of course I'd be triggered. What is is there a mission? Is there a problem? You know? And it was, it was funny. Um obviously in my head it sounds like that. I don't think I was too overwhelming, but um, you know, uh but with time, it's interesting because that's where two people come together. And so I learned to tone it down slightly because I'm not changing who I am. It's just who I am and passionate.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

But he's learned to love it. And he's learned to also now he's like starting to really vocalize and use his voice. And so it's not yelling but now he's kind of meeting me there as well which you know and like you said being in you know when we're with family and he's like okay I'm used to it now. You know at first it was like oh my God that's a lot and you know um but again it goes back to you know um actions right um it was a lot for him and sometimes I think and in and I want to touch on this I remember being triggered by it. So it does it I would remember thinking like does it bother you to be around my family because I look at him and he's like what you know and I'm like what's wrong with you and he's like nothing I'm just trying to process and absorb it all um you know but again going back to to um helping him understand you know the no people aren't fighting people this is how we get along this is how you know this is what we do you know and then of course everybody is always trying to talk over each other like we're just very expressionate and loving and happy festive people but it's not that again it's just he's such use he's so used to coming coming from a very calm place right like um you know even music he's like oh my god that's a little too loud and I'm like you know and he's like oh my god you're gonna blow my ears out but he was learned to appreciate it you know um so that's where again you know um compromise is a big one you know learning how to and and I don't even like the word compromise because it's not compromise he he was able to see it through my eyes yeah see it through through what makes me happy and you know when the music comes on you know my my life like my everything about me changes and I think that's what he enjoys you know the uh the the environment and and just how happy it makes me and I think that makes him happy as well so you learn to appreciate those things right but yeah it's um even raising our children you know growing up I was always the chunkla remember the chunkla I don't are you familiar with that uh uh what's a chunkla okay so if you go and every Hispanic is familiar like when you were bad as a child mom would always get the sandal and she'd be like you know and I would always be like I'm gonna get the chunkla you know I'm gonna get the chunkla and my husband was like are you serious never use the chunkla right but that was just this that's a saying that we use I'm gonna use the chunkla and um you know my husband's like what like that I mean even raising the kids was very different. You know he's loving and I'm not saying I'm not understanding. I'm understanding but see this is how I talk. And so you know again he he was you know especially with my son being very a protective mother you know um there was certain expectations I even had on my son that my husband helped like hey you know like maybe let him be a little bit more free and you know uh he he played the role that he was the influence that my son needed and I needed to help guide him you know because I feel that as a parent you need the contrast of both personalities. And my son didn't have that the first two years of his life. And so I was the sole like influence in his life. And so then he came to help facilitate that by adding more um calm to the story which was soothing. And I think is what makes him such an amusing amazing human right now.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

You know my son is very well rounded rounded yeah it's i and that's the important thing about um you know I'm by no means am I telling anyone that they have to stay in an unhealthy relationship but when we're talking about uh when children are in the the um the equation we want to create environments where they are being you know raised in a healthy way they're gaining the good of both worlds you know um yeah so of course my husband is is um my husband is American you know coming from a you know a Caribbean background you know so my kids are like you even now as adult there because all my kids are adults um they are like it's they're like mom there's a lot of things that this thing on social media is teaching us I understand some things you did yes that's a Jamaican thing yeah you know and and the thing is because of that's who I am I didn't think that I needed to explain the cultural background behind why I say go sit in the corner don't talk to me right now you know or you know there's raised voices just having regular conversation you know but when our you know when our um for what our partners are able to you know to empathize with us stepping into our shoes and understanding that yeah this is where you know that's coming from you know my husband being that calm as well he understood that okay that's just her that's just all of you know what make that's her makeup you know I'm not here to change that but he knows when to just kind of bring that you know what I said that calm into the equation and I'm not just losing it you know when my you know of course when my kids messed up and I pick up a shoe and just sail it across the room he's like girl you cannot throw things at the children. You cannot do that. Wait, what? Things were thrown at me all the time I turned out okay I mean I turned out fine at least I think I was you know and that's the crazy thing we did think we turned out fine until we got in relationships and realized wait a second that no that's not healthy. We don't we don't do that around here and that was a big one you know discipline we use our words we don't you know we don't um act it out and you know and all that so um I wanted to talk a little bit about um learning the definition of each other's love what did that look like for you the way because obviously the way he loved and the way you loved were completely different.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

So share a little bit about what his look like what yours looked like and how you guys were able to merge the two you know thank you for right now when you said that this word the biggest word that popped up was judgment um you know one thing I could uh yesterday when I was talking thinking about it um I've never felt judg judgment on his behalf you know um and that's a big one for me you know um when I uh when we through all these years um his love language has been feed me you know um I love food I love food like the way and he would tell me the way to my heart is through food right and the interesting part of that is growing up I was um I was never in the kitchen my sister was the one that was known for cooking and she did all these great dishes and so you know um as I got older um you know a lot of the time I I lived alone so I would just go to mom's house for for dinner and so then I meet this amazing guy and he's like the way to my heart is through food and I'm like oh shoot I remember our first our first day he's like well you're you're Mexican make me like a a a great Mexican dish girl I burned the rice I said we're going down for Mexican Okay meet me at a restaurant yeah but going back to the layers um you know we don't know what we don't know yes and um I felt love in in the sense of learning to want to and wanting to learn to cook. And then I found out I was amazing at it. Isn't that the crazy part is uh the gift was in there girl it was in there yeah it was in there and he pulled that out you know um because he was always very open about you know all it takes for me is just feed me like he can barbecue and everything but you know I realize now that it's the sense it's for him is knowing that you are for in the way he grew up his mom was a it you know she's Italian and the the way she showed love was cooking for the world and do you see how he processes love through that and even though he can cook and he cooks amazing you know for him it was like what are you gonna make for dinner today like I want to know what it what your food tastes like and he loves it. You know I mastered some of his mom's dishes and to him that's all it took. Yeah and so again going understanding the love language was um you know learning wanting there's a difference yes wanting to cook because when I felt like I had to cook the very first day it was like I burned rice but then after it was you know I'm enjoying this part like I enjoy that I can create this. And so that's when it turns into love when you're like you're teaching me things about my or you you've you've pulled things out of me that I that's where the self-discovery comes in. I didn't realize I love to cook. Yeah until wait later and that I was good at it. Right and um again for me it was more of like um you know my expectations when I entered the relationship were very superficial. It was like you know I wanted um you know in my brain and unfortunately and you know I hook I want people to understand that you know that's how I for me that love was to you know celebrate you and and love you and buy you shower you with gifts. Oh and by the way I want that back too yeah you know my husband wasn't like that my husband was like you know for Valentine's Day I think I share this with you I'm like where's my flowers and like you know my you know the 14 care code or whatever you know this and that like I'm expecting something big and he's like I love you every day like what are you talking about? Oh my God like wait celebration like you don't do celebrations and he's like no like you know why would we why would I have to tell you one day of the year that I love you when I can tell you every day of the year that I love you. Yeah and but my brain at the moment was like because everybody else is doing it and that's well because everyone else is doing it because everyone is showing the amazing you know um amazing days that they're having and when I stop looking outward and then I realize you know that his actions and his love well his love is is through his actions which is you know she loves coffee I'm gonna go get her coffee. Hey I brought you your coffee or those little things that we tend to overlook and take for granted you know and and that's where again the love language and now when I look back I realize how very open he was with what he needs and when you're closed off you don't get it until you you know until you process it. Um and then the biggest part of that was when he kept asking me like how you know what do you want? What do you need? And I couldn't explain it.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

I didn't know until the years went by and I realized that I love what I had with does that make sense in this yes is the safety that he brings you know his presence bring a level of safety where again your your your head was trying to find that word to put to it but there there's there's no word it's just it's just the it's just the presence you know just him showing up every day. It's not necessarily the text he sent every day but it's the reassurance that he's there is what that text represents. You know um him saying yes I love you every day I don't need February 14th to tell you that I love you. That's him again mind you in my opinion I think you know the rest of the world they may only have February 14th but he's like no you have 365 days of February 14th. You know what I mean? And so what I'm hearing there is the level of um of safety and reassurance that he brought just being present was more than you know and I think probably in my marriage the same you know I had this issue where I I just did not um again being a single mom and then showing up and I had everything figured out I really don't need you in that capacity. Right. You said you didn't talk to each other when you get in conflict what have you like not talking for a week okay audience I was not that bad.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

I just didn't talk for three days and so again it's easier it was so much easier to just shut down but I love the way um when you you pointed out that he would constantly say what do you need again that level pulling away that layer and pushing for that self-discovery I want you to vocalize what is it that you need and I'm you know in those moments um I learned you know what my own again it's always us trust you trust it's me I am the problem you know but you know what they what they call that um bids for affection or bids for connection and what those moments create is a level of safety for both of you um it also teaches us as married couples how to reconnect afterwards because that sends the message how are we gonna bring up the next conflict are we safe enough to bring up that next thing what is that hurt that I'm maybe processing that I don't know how he's going to react well he has a trend of showing up and making me feel safe so I can believe in that I can rest in that's I that's big um you know that I my husband was emotionally available at that time but I I wasn't I wasn't you know because I so and I want to bring this up because um right now I just had something show up for me um something that I've been asking and I'm just now realizing having this reflection with you um my relationships ended many times during conflict um because I I couldn't explain what was going on but the truth is um sorry I just had that escape um I didn't know how to answer that when he asked me and I think that's where I went to work was I was shh when we had the conflict music was like what do you need I I literally was like oh my god I don't know I don't know what I need um and you know the thing too is that our brains self-sabotage yes yeah because at that point I'm like well then now you're gonna leave you know and he was like nope I'm gonna stick around and I'm gonna keep asking you know until you figure it out and um and this is where I I was explaining about judgment um yeah yeah you know it was never about judgment for him it was always like you know um I know who you are you know I see who you are and you know I'm just waiting for you to see that as well and I can see it in his eyes I can see it in his act like the way his body language um you know previous relationships it was like hard and walking away like whatever with him it was just that holding space and then ready we'll talk you know in and it's years of you know of stuff that you carry and that's the beauty of it is that one I was able to see that I was able to catch on to his body language but I also you know as the cycles kept coming or the conflict kept coming and it was the same thing over and over the body language started to change from holding space to I'm getting really tired you really need to figure this out and that's at that point is where for me it was like okay oh shit yeah like you feel it in your heart like your stomach there's a hole in your stomach when he does not react the same way yeah you're like is this it and then your embrace like see I told you the self-sabotage and then the other part of you goes oh that's unacceptable we need to figure this out soon and so that's when you start you know for me I started doing the work of you know when things would have conflict would happen you know courage to say this bothered me and I see it this way and I reacted this way because that's how I perceived it and then he would turn around and go oh my God I am so sorry that's not what I meant and I'm like you didn't wait what excuse me you know um and it was like babe this is what I was trying to see and then it was like oh this is really good okay that's gonna be a week this rhythm of communication there's something to it like what now my brain isn't telling me stories I'm not hiding though that whole week was my brain telling me stories of why I was right and he was wrong and why I need to stay independent and not like da da da da and I'm like wait a minute so now because I did speak and I did tell him what was wrong and I and it was my words it was like I perceived it this way because I've had this experience yeah wait what are you kidding me that's not what I intended to say or do I'm like you didn't and that's where it was like there's no judgment there he just saw it a certain way but my brain was like oh validation there it is you know and I'm like that is so that is so profound because I think a lot of marriages end right there.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Yeah it's right there that's that crossroad am I going to show up and be vulnerable see for me it was you know my processing was in that three days where my brain tells me how in you know basically how in um uh invalid I was and you know this the same this again the same words that I used to hear from previous relationships those same baggage you know we bring him in and we use those same lens to process the this whole the same situation. Now what I love there is we talked a little bit about um you know that one scripture in Proverbs Proverbs 27 says It talks about iron sharpening iron. And it, you know, so does one man sharpens the other. Now, the the you know, when we first go into our relationship, you know, we are building something brand new. And there's never a time that we go to make a masterpiece where we don't have to chip away at some parts of it. We have to reshape it. We have to, you know, you know, get that chisel and you know, break things. Well, that doesn't feel good, you know. And so in that chipping away, I, you know, I've always said, you know, it's it's the, you know, that's the painful part. That's where you go into that the layers are, you know, being revealed. But I love the perspective that you brought to it when we were talking um before. And you said that's the we're literally chipping away the baggage that we brought. You know, so uh talk a little bit about that. What was what would that look like for you? What was some of the, you know, that that what did that experience for you look like?

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Um, well, you know, initially it was um, you know, it was like I said, we it the trigger, right? You go through the process of the trigger. Um, and then when we were working through and like I said, when I finally spoke my truth um or how I felt, uh there was a sense of calm prior to that when we chip at it, you know, that's what he was doing. Every time we would have that conversation, he would go back to the I just wish you knew what you wanted, or I wish you would understand. And you know, sometimes even though it feels like we're you know, we're doing the same thing over and over, um every time that person holds space for you, and like in his case, he was loving me without judgment. It was having me question, you know, would he continue to ask me? You know, it was writing down and understanding why is he being persistent? You know, I think I told you about self- self-sabotage, right? Um at that point my brain's like, girl, he's not giving up. Like he's still at it, like he's still asking. Yeah, you know, at what point do you are you gonna understand what you want? Right. And that is where once you peel off those layers and you start to think of the contrast, what you have now, yeah, what you had before, and how those two emotions feel and the difference, because um, again, this is how I was able to identify my um resistance to safety. You know, it was when I realized that I didn't have to be defensive, and he would tell me too, and that was a part that hurt was that he's like, Why do you have to be defensive? I'm just trying to get some get something across. And if I say, Why did you buy that shirt? You just get defensive. And it's like he's not judging me, he's asking a question, and we kept it kept leading into conflict, but we have to do the work where when you when you are ready to change, to make the change, you have to have the courage to face the truth. And the truth is, are you being unrealistic?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

And are you not wanting to hear it? Because then you just get the same results. Yeah, you know, it could be him, it could be anybody. And I think that's where he had the emotional um the emotional yeah, to to support that and and help me and and continue, but even that at some point it was gonna break him if I didn't get it sooner, right? Yeah, and I think again, um with time, you know, how he showed up for me helped me understand that he wasn't going anywhere. Yeah. Unless unless I didn't shift.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a there's a um I heard my pastor say this and I I said I'm gonna give him credit for a few few times and then it's gonna be my quote. But he said he he said we you know, what commitment says, um, you know, we let me make sure I get it, I get it right. Because in in marriage, what what we tend to do is I am leaving if you don't fix this. But what commitment says, I am not leaving, so we better fix this. Yes. You know, because that's the first thing we throw up. That's what we're that's what our brains are used to. Okay, this ain't working, so I'm out. Well, if I'm not going anywhere, this gotta be fixed.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Because I'm not staying here in that situation. You know, but we're gonna so the focus doesn't become about me leaving, the focus becomes we're fixing this together.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

You know.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

That is true. I again sitting here and talking, um, you know, one thing when we would have conflict, he would say, and those were his words, I'm not going anywhere. Yeah, I'm in it for the long run. And you know, going back to my baggage, that's the point where most would say, Yeah, I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

And I'm like, my brain kept getting confused by that you know, um and and again it goes back to you know, um those cues were there from the very beginning of the relationship. You know. And I even though I didn't understand those cues at the beginning, I knew it was good. And and and it's not about, you know, um it really isn't about you know who's wrong or right. It's about a being, you know, and um he met me where I was and he carried me through with love. Yeah and and more importantly was helping me helping unveil and allowing me to see my self-worth and how much I deserved it. Because again, it's I'm gonna be honest, um, Karen, I've been in this transformational self, you know, development for many years. Yeah, you know, and we and it's still in the works, I'm still going through it. And you know, the goal is to leave the legacy for our children and our grandchildren, right? And I couldn't have found a better person to have supported that journey.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

No, because again, there wasn't any judgment. Um, and at the very beginning, I couldn't see that because I was so overwhelmed with my own stuff. And that's where we we talk about the chipping away. He kept at it, kept at it, kept at it, until I was able to see the full picture of what he's he's brought, you know, to this relationship and the commitment. And it is about commitment and sticking with it until you know that person is ready.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah, you know. Yeah. And and it's the it's the level of um of self-assurance that he already has. He's coming to the relationship with what we call in in um in the coaching space is um the secure attachment. You know, he's like, okay, I I I'm good with who I am, you know, and I'm here to just bring out the best out of you, the best of you, who you are. You know, basically what he has already recognized, what he's already seen, and know that's already in there that you know, I'm looking in the mirror like, I don't know what you see over here, but anyway. Fine then. You're sticking around. All right. I wake up here. We are wake up 33 and a half years later, and okay, he's still there. And still loving you. He's not moved by the look, he's not moved by the silk cap on my head. He's not moved by the no makeup. Because it's never been, you know, secure men like that, or you know, secure partners like that, they will um, they're not moved by this exterior stuff. And so even though we, you know, and I say we, because I know you and I are, we we take up space, we we have big personalities, you know, we we don't hide who we are. This is we walk in a room and this is it. What we what you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

You know, and so we're not um the moment that we think someone is trying to um you know make us feel small is we coming out with all with what is it, claws extend extended. We're not about to do that, you know. Having um we could only be married to people that are secure in themselves, you know, even though insecurity was what was leading a lot of who we are. That was a lot of our identity was so wrapped in that insecurity. And so with that, I wanted you to talk a little bit about um if you were to sit down with um, you know, say pull one of our audience members and put them in the hot seat and say, Hey girl, let me have a conversation with you. Um, what would you tell them? Um, I want to I want to kind of touch on three things, but what would you tell them about first about communication? What would be your advice that, hey, I didn't know this coming in, but this is what I wanted, I would want you to know.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Um the first thing is understanding because communication is there's a variety, right? Yeah, um understanding what kind of communication it is for them. Um more importantly, uh being comfortable and courageous to speak your truth when it comes to being open with what you want. Um you don't get communication is actually the the the it's the language for everything for all of our relationships, especially um the you know, the ones that, you know, um with our significant other. But so what I would say is first understand how you're communicating because many times we think we are communicating, but we're not, you know. Um we are find your words, know what you're trying to communicate and understand if that's being received. Because what we think we're giving or saying or explaining is landing very differently, especially because their experience. That's the thing about um, you know, previous relationships that didn't work was that we none of us knew how to communicate because we only communicated our needs, but we didn't communicate what we were what we would do for them as well. Like this is what I'm bringing to the table, but this is what I would love for you to bring to the table as well. It was just me, never you.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Wow, yes. So what I'm hearing with um communication, it's not again, it's not just words, because we we know that it takes the tone and the body language and all of those things. Um and what I do know for a fact is it is the lifeblood of your of our relationship. So if that's not happening, our relationship is suffering. But I you know, I also hear, you know, um use your words versus reacting, you know. So you know, that's that's huge. And how is what I'm saying being received by the other person? Because we process information based on our perspective and our experiences. So if nothing else, where you walk away with that when it comes to um communication. What about emotional intimacy? What would you tell um a new, a newlywed, you know, about emotional intimacy?

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Emotional intimacy, again, it really goes to understanding your partner. You know, when you have an understanding of what they need and they understand what you need, that's you know, um that's the only way it actually works. Um it's important and it's important to keep in mind that you know, um those values that that mean a lot to them. Um and find compromise in that, you know. I don't know if I answered your question correctly.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

Yeah, yeah. Um because the the thing is and that that's um for one, that's because that's so broad, because it's gonna be different, you know, for each person. But um, you know, showing up with um, you know, for one, your partner needs to be emotionally available. That's that that helps, you know. You know, that definitely helps. But when we're in those moments where um, you know, because what I'm for for for your relationship and mine, because and again, so many similarities, um, of course, because of you know the cultural differences as well. But when we're talking about um, you know, being emotionally present and being able to tap into your partner beyond just what you're seeing, you know, because our husbands could have easily gotten turned, you know, turned off by our our our big presence, you know, like, oh my God, she she way too loud. She, you know, she's she's too much. She, you know, she takes up the whole room, you know. But it's so funny how even now going forward, um, you know, and the problem, you know, it's funny how I've never met your husband, but I can almost tell that even though he may not be the loudest person in the room, but his presence is felt. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, he walks in and, yeah, oh, that's Karen's husband, you know, or that's Fatima's husband. You know, they because we you know, I'm not I'm not busy trying to make him feel bad for being not as loud as me, not as outspoken as me, you know. No, because I like his, I like his steadiness, I like his um his even keel. Because girl, can you imagine if both of us was as turned up?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

Yes, actually, now that you mention it, I was just gonna say in the word that that came up again, like I mentioned, it was the contrast. They are our grounding because we are so you know profound and loud. Like when we, you know, when I go to events or do anything, um, I get so overwhelmed with the energy there that matches my energy. But then I gotta go home and being around his presence, it almost brings me back to that grounding, right? Um, and you're right. Uh, you know, I remember right now when you mentioned I used to say, you have to be like, you know, we would go to an event or something, and I'm like, you know, you uh you gotta interact because he's such an introvert. And, you know, um, I wanted him to go to these social circles, and he's like, that's just not who I am. But when I see him at work, I'm like, is this the same guy I'm married to? You know, like the way he commands the room, yes, people around him, he doesn't have to, he's not a man of many words, but he people people feel his energy. Yeah, and I think that's when when we come together, we're just like one big fireball, you know, even though I'm loud and he's very quiet. Yeah, he doesn't have to, and I think that's where we he holds space for me. I think I mentioned to you before where he's like, you know, in the feng shui, um, the Chinese calendar, I'm the horse. And he's like, you know, when I'm running around doing all kinds of crazy things, he's like, hey, you know, come here, my horse, you know, stop galloping the meadows and let's get focused. Because I'm just a big ball of energy doing all kinds of crazy things. But um, you know, but he's very centered. And, you know, again, the contrast of who we are, his his love is being with family, um, financially financial security, um, you know, uh calmness, uh just you know, everything that I wasn't used to. Yeah, and I, you know, I'm like, let's party. I love be around people, engagement. And he's come to meet me halfway. He's like, all right, we can do that, which is great. And then I've learned to tone it down slightly, yes, you know, and enjoy the world, the different world that we both ring bring to each other. But yeah, it's still like you know, the words are the worlds are here. We love he loves this, I love that. But then we turn it around and we anchor ourselves with that love.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

Yeah, yes, yes, and that's at the end of the day, that's what I want. Um, that's my desire, anyway, for every couple to be able to say, okay, I am not abandoning who I am, you are not abandoning who you are, but we are building something completely different that never existed before. And how can we do that and you know be able to use what we've built to change the trajectory of the lives of our children and our children's children? Because at the end of the day, that's what I truly believe that I'm called to do to help people have healthy relationships so they can step into their true calling. That way they're not distracted by unhealthy relationships. And if this anything that's been said on this podcast today can change the life of a spouse or you know, a wife, a marriage, change the lives of the children that will come as a result of that, then our job here is done. Fatima, I want to thank you so very much for being with me today. Again, girl, it's always good just connecting with you. And I know we don't get to do it as often, but I so thank you for um, you know, for stopping in and speaking life into us today. Again, thank you for being my guest. And for those of you out there, thank you so very much uh for tuning in to another episode of the State of Our Union and the Fight to Keep It. Have an amazing rest of your day, and we'll talk soon. Thank you.