Divorce is not Final | Heather and Sherman

Heather and Sherman share their journey from divorce to rekindled love. They faced challenges that many couples encounter, especially in those early years when expectations can lead to miscommunication and heartache.

To learn more about Heather and Sherman contact the host of this podcast.

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Thanks for tuning in! If today’s EP resonated with you, subscribe, like, and share it with someone who needs it. Connect with me on all platforms @karenwillcoach - and if you are ready to go deeper, join the community and continue the conversation inside my Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/loveandconflict" Until next time, let’s continue to fight for our union.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Hello once again. The state of our union and the fight to keep it. Today we have Heather and Sherman, and I am so excited to have you guys. Sherman and Heather, go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I'm Sherman.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

And I'm Heather. We've been together about 40 years. 40 years to last. We've been through a lot and we're still here. We're from Florida, been out here in lovely Las Vegas for 30 years? 35 years? Something like that. So been members of members of Canyon Ridge, you know, for 25. And Canyon helped has helped us a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yeah, that's so cool. So I know being in Las Vegas as long as you guys have, you've seen so many changes. Can't even begin to imagine. We've been out here 20, 21 years. And so we've seen changes. I know you guys have seen so, so very much. So we're going to dive into our conversation. We're not trying to hang out. I would love to hang out with you guys all day, but I'm sure you guys have other things to do. So, as you know, the premise of this podcast is really to uh bring on couples who have, you know, faced challenges, gotten over the other side of it, and able to help younger couples who might find themselves in that position where they say, Oh my God, I think I've married the wrong person. How do I get past this? How do I get over this? How do I grow past whatever this is? You know, so I always bring people on that have the experiences, done, you know, seasoned married couples, because hey, I'm yes, I've been, Rob and I have been married 33 years, but we don't do everything exactly the way everybody does it. So having extra couples come on and share their wisdom is always um exciting. I look forward to that for sure. And so I have you guys here, you know, to share as much as you're comfortable with with our audience, and we'll jump right in. Now, when I looked at you guys' application, one of the challenges that jumped out for us, and I love how you use one-word answers. So give us the opportunity to really dive in. So I asked, what was one challenge that you guys uh was able to um navigate through and then get on the other side of it? Can you tell us tell us as much or as little as you guys are comfortable with sharing?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Okay, here goes. I look not to set expectations in your mind, in your fantasy mind, or wherever it all comes from. And we decided to get married. Four months, five months into the marriage, it wasn't anything like what I thought it was gonna be. Wisdom, I said, let's get a divorce. And we did. Biggest mistake I've ever made in my entire life. I don't know where my mind was at that time, but I was miserable the whole time we were separate after that. And it took a while for me to figure out, you know, you probably need to be a little bit more flexible about what you feel and what you expect. And once I learned that, things got easy.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yeah, so you know, that what I love about what you're what you're sharing there is um so many couples deal with that uh that uncertainty in the first couple years of marriage, you know, because we all go into marriage with these lists of expectations, and sometimes, you know, sometimes we don't voice them. We just have these expectations randomly as if our spouse was supposed to read our minds. Now, while you were out there miserable, Heather, tell me what your what was going on for you.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

I was miserable too, Karen. But I had to take that time to reflect back on me. Um without going into whole detail. Shrimmer will tell people the reason I got divorced was because he got stupid. He got stupid, but it was also uh glass of cold water thrown in my face as well. I guess my expectations um were that yeah, the things were gonna be perfect. And I found myself reflecting on was I trying to please was I trying to be the way Sherman wanted me to be, the way that Sherman wanted me to be, the wife that I wanted to be, or the wife that he wanted me to be. And it was very sobering for me. Um at one point, Sherman and I, even though we got divorced, um our son, Sherman, that's the greatest gift Sherman's ever given is our son. Um that kept us kind of seeing each other when Jay would come back into Los Angeles combine with his mom. Um, Sherman called and said, you know, come on get together. So again, during that time that we were apart, there was a lot of self-reception going up on my part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah. And and so what I'm hearing there, even during that um that period of separation, instead of focusing on the other person, we focus on ourselves. We figure out what is it that we really want? Who am I supposed to be doing? What am I supposed to be doing in this season? You know, how do I come back to the relationship better than I was before?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Um, that's a I mean, that's a tool right off the bat. We've only been six and a half minutes into the conversation, and you already got a takeaway. You know, stop focusing on our spouse, focus on ourselves, and then we can show up better in the relationship. So good. Now, when you you said, okay, you guys got divorced, then got married.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Tell me, tell the audience who does that? Well, and my parents did that. Um so I guess I learned it from them. Um there the circumstances behind the divorce. I didn't want it. Sherman did, we went through it.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Um and didn't hate.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

And didn't hate, yeah. You know, um, so again, we never really we did separate. I mean, we had separate, you know, tried to have some separate lists, but we just knew that it wasn't meant to be we weren't meant to be a part, we were meant to be together. How do we get back together again? So we did get back together again. Um Sherman asked me to move into our home. And I was kind of the one that said, okay, we'll do this, but um we gotta get married. If we're going to be together for the rest of our lives, which we know that that's what we want, we need to be married, and we need to take the word divorce out of our vocabulary. Yeah. All right. So I think the difference between the first year that we were married and then the second was in the first in the first marriage, we when things would happen, it was well, let's figure this out and see if we can stay together. In the second marriage, it's we're a daughter, we're married, let's figure this out. And that was a big both of us.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

So it sounded like you guys went in with a different mindset the second time.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Yeah. So um, Sherman, tell me a little bit about um, so when she laid down, you know, the rules per se, if we're moving back in together, we we have to get married. Where was what what was your mindset like? Were you open to it right away, or did you did you struggle with that? Tell me, tell me a little bit about that time.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I was open right away. It too comes soon enough for me. I was I was in a world of hurt.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Um one of the things that I one of the things that I notice with um with new couples is we want what we want, and I say we, you know, lack of a better term, but we, you know, we want what we want when we go into marriage because we have these ideas of what marriage is supposed to be. And we step into it with, I don't know, again, expectations, um, not really having a solid foundation. But what I noticed with you guys, you step back into the second half or the second time with some values. You had some uh convictions going in the second time. Tell me what some of those convictions were. Share that with the audience, what yours were, and Sherman, definitely what yours were.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Karen, during the time when we were coming back together again, um Sherman literally got down on his knees and asked me to forgive him. And that was very, very hard to meet. I never wanted to see her husband like that again. And I knew that it was also because of me. Yeah, it was there was a lot of him, but there was a lot of me in that as well. So again, the conviction was we're gonna get married again. And I am going to do what God wants me to do as a biblical wife. And just changing that focus for me, I know this is repetitive, but just changing that focus for me. That it made all the difference to the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Okay. I was so missed without her that I just couldn't think of anything else. And I made up my mind that we are going to work our way through this no matter what. I had to change my attitude about a lot of things. I had to definitely change my expectations. But you know, in the end I knew that she is a woman I wanted for the rest of my life. So that's how it had to be. And I became extremely flexible in my ideas. And once I became that way, it became a lot easier.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Yeah. So we you know, first deciding, okay, this is somebody that I cannot live without. Not just somebody that I'm choosing to live with, but I can't live without this person.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

True.

SPEAKER_03 13:14

And then going in, because we know we can't live without, we may know that we don't, we can't live without this person. But once we make the decision that even after the warm fuzzes are gone, the word is going to keep us together, even in those moments where times get a little, you know, it gets a little rough, it gets a little challenging, and we may not like each other today, but we know how to get beyond that. And so having a um having that foundation, in you guys' case, the word of God, as your your conviction, you know, now you're accountable to some something higher and bigger than yourselves. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Karen, there's also some um medical things going on. My husband is um bipolar, an ADHD, um, and I am not. And um Yeah, I have it. I know you're pretty you're pretty chill. Usually, usually throughout, even during the the divorce time and going back together, German was medicated. Um but we found ourselves in in the beginning, um kind of blaming things on oh we're just bipolar. Well, he's ADHD. He w he did it, he blamed that, and I blame him out. That was also something that changed in when we came back together, I think. Was okay, you're bipolar, you're ADHD. I'm not saying get over, but take that useful.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, let's deal with it as a yeah, that was that was tough.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

That was tough. Um our son, Jay is not my biologist, but he's our son. Um, he learned a lot of that um how to deal with it. ADHD a little bit polar. He learned a lot from us in how we dealt with it. It wasn't it wasn't this um thing anymore that you could use as an excuse to go out of the cookie, or I get angry because I've got polar. No, it was like, you know what? I have blue eyes, I can't use that. Okay. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Yeah. And so you you pretty much force him to not use that as a crutch or an excuse. We just we we're moving day by day towards this. Now, the the the the the thing is we um, you know, when we talk about um, you know, medical issues or medical challenges, that's you know, that's one thing over here by itself to where you can't you can't excuse that away. You can't um, I don't know, you can't push that's one thing you can't push that under the rug. It is what it is. You have to look at it every day, you know, um and deal with that every day. And that takes a decision every single day.

unknown 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

It took a lot of courage.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Um so all right, Sherman, what is it, what does it look like to wake up every day and choose Heather, choosing to be there every single day?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

It's wonderful. I mean, I struggle because of the fact that I am bipolar. I have an extremely violent heat, and because of the things that we've chosen to work with her, haven't seen that in years. So things are great with her.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah, yeah, I I can definitely tell because I I work with Heather on a regular basis. So I know if anything was going on at home, she wouldn't be able to function the way she functions, even as we serve together. So that that is um that's one of those challenges where you can't just say, all right, let me let you know, let me, I don't know, let's go buy some Tylenol and fix that. It's decision after decision, daily decisions on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Karen, there was also medical help that we got, um psychiatric help, um, coaching counselors, and very proud of my husband. He was open to doing all of those things. Um loved the charge, but he was very, very open to it. Again, that was very humbling uh for people that he felt our relationship was worth going through all that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Sherman, what would you say to um especially talk to the men for a second? Because a lot of time the women are or the wives are wanting to go for help, seek help, get the counseling. And a lot of guys are like, no, we're good, we can figure this out together. So talk to that young man right now who feel like his wife is just going, she's just crazy. She doesn't need, we don't need any help, we don't need outside help.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

What would you say to that guy?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

The first thing I'd say is there's no right and wrong in a relationship like this. Whether you think it is right or wrong, it doesn't really make a difference because your only objective that you got is to get to the other side and make sure everything's good. So, you know, the biggest thing I would recommend is learn how to be truthful with one another. Because your feelings can really, really hide things and cover them up, and it's not necessary because the person you're talking to is not the one that's gonna talk to. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

Because in in in your um in your guys' um questionnaire, you mentioned be truthful and not protective. Expand on that a little bit, Heather.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Wow. Um again in dealing with Sherman being bipolar, he can be brutally honest, painfully honest um about himself, but also about what I'm doing and how it affects him. And I had to learn how to take that not personally, but if he if he was going to be vulnerable enough to share those raw emotions with me, I had to be humble enough to listen, absorb it, um and then come back together again. Uh it was it's hard. It's hard. It I g it it has gotten easier over the years and speak up truthfully. Um it get it it doesn't get easier. I think I think you just you you learn how you give each other space to be flexible um and not to take things personally when you're dealing with those kinds of issues.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

So don't take don't take this stuff personally. In other words, don't take yourself super serious, right? Create that room, create space for each of you to just be the human, you know, like embrace the humanness in each other. You know, you're not gonna get it perfect, you're not gonna get it right every single time. So how do, you know, how do we we embrace all of that? Now we're gonna shift gears just a little bit. And uh some of the challenges that I know most couples have, especially in the early years, is money, communication, intimacy. We talked about expectations. Um, what area stretched you guys the most early on?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And uh tell me why that was um we didn't have a lot of financial problems in the beginning, but we sure had a heck of a time trying to figure each other out.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Communication.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Yeah. Communication.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

There again, you have all these expectations, and the way you think the person should react to what you do, and when she doesn't, it's like whoops, you know, and turned into several different situations, but now whoops, we need to stop and see what we can do and figure this out to get to the other side, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

The money side of things are um again, divorce marriage marriage and that kind of stuff. There wasn't a time when Sherman or I weren't afraid to talk about money with each other. And it there was never a breadwinner, therefore you have to do what I say. Um there were times, a lot of times when I was the breadwinner or made more money than my husband. Um And it didn't bother him. He was very proud of me. So we worked through I wish the communication that we had with money had translated into other areas of organization in the beginning. It didn't. And that's probably because we weren't babies when we got together the first time. We were late 20s, I was late 20s, he was early 30s. We'd been married previously. So those kinds of issues we knew how to knew how to deal with. It goes hand in hand with the expectation. And that was we can communicate on that very well. I think that's important too. We were able to tell each other, you know, what pleased each other. We were able to ask each other for what pleasured each other. So those things, but the communication side of it was was the most difficult part.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Yeah. Just getting your getting your point across without feeling, you know, I mean, yes, we should feel vulnerable, but it's that um that fear of vulnerability and you know, um, well, what is he gonna think of me or what is she gonna think of me? And you know, all of those things. And so we I know a lot of times, you know, couples go into uh for some reason, we think that uh those things are just gonna fall into place without having conversation about them. Yeah, you know, and that's one of the struggles that I do see. Um I do see couples, you know, struggling through. Like, how do I show up as my full self in this relationship? Um so as you know, as you guys run into, you know, I know over time you guys have gotten the chance to sit down with other couples and have conversations with them, or you run into, you know, just couples out and about. Um what do you see as one of the top struggles that they're facing in these in these days and times?

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Probably the biggest thing that we see in the people we know is one or the other either thinks it's all about them rather than it's about us. After you get past that point, things worth a lot of you. There again, the being flexible, talking about things.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

I one of the things that I see take care of is couples that don't develop friendships outside of their marriage, and that kind of again goes to expectations, expecting that your spouse is going to meet every need that you have. And number one, I mean if you think if you just think about that, that's putting a whole lot of burden on that other person. Um, so I encourage both men and women to have good friendships outside of your relationship, outside of your relationship with your spouse. We have um several couple friends that um we feel comfortable enough to share things when they're going on with us. Um we have a couple of friends that um are not necessarily a couple, you know, together. But Sherman knows my friends, I know his friends. Um that doesn't mean I necessarily want to hang around with his friends, but he wants to be with mine. But there's no there's no secrets there, you know. It's like, hey, I'm gonna go have lunch with Evelyn. I'll see you guys in a couple three or four hours. He knows who Evelyn is, he's not questioning it. Um and I I need that, and now he needs that. He went out to breakfast this morning with a friend of his. Um, so I think that's important is to have an outside support system. Not saying you're gonna share all of the intimate things in your marriage with your friends, because I don't think you're doing that. I don't agree with that either. Okay. Um, but to have other interests perhaps your spouse is involved in, that's been a good thing for us. It's been a good thing for us.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Yes, yes. Uh and it's so important to be you uh that you bring up that point because um as individuals, we we both came to the marriage with ideas and we both came to the marriage with different perspectives about different things. And uh we can't, like you said, you your spouse is not your all in all. And requiring them, requiring that of them is like again, so just reiterating what you're saying, so much pressure on that one person. And so if you and I are able to establish healthy relationships outside of our marriage relationship, interests outside of that, because it's so much fun, also, I think that um if you are able to introduce your spouse to something that you are doing, some uh, you know, whatever that interest might be. You know, um, I remember the other day when we all got together and uh Sherman, we looked up and Heather come coming in on a motorcycle, and we're like, wait a minute now. I was like, okay, um, I think questions. Yeah, you know, and it's to me, you know, you you talked um later on how you guys go riding sometimes, and uh that's uh something that you enjoy together, but at the same time, you you know, you were hanging out with us. Sherman was not there. We were just all hanging out, having, you know, our dis you know, good food, good yes, good, good food, good wine, and you know, talking about how how to serve better. And uh, you know, again, uh neither none of our spouses were was there. Rob wasn't there, Sherman wasn't there, um, Sheena's husband wasn't there, you know, Mark's wife wasn't there. So the point there is we all serve together in this area of ministry that fulfills us. It's it's it's just us, you know. And you we're able to show back up in our marriage better for it because again, we have interests outside of our marriage relationship. I am not dependent on Rob to be my all in all. I got other things to do, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Sure asked me, you know, how many years a long time ago, whatever the argument remember, he looked at me and said, I don't know how to make you happy. Or I can't make you happy. My response was right, you can't make me happy. I'm trying to again that was an awful moment, I think, for both of us. You can't make the other person happy. Allow the other person, come in, it's very supportive of me, I'm very supportive of him. Allow your spouse to be able to have those interests doesn't mean that you have to go with them to you know, the women's coffee club, you know, or whatever it is, but giving them space to be able to do that is is important.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

Yeah, so the the the thing is I I think um some couples you know end up feeling uh so um you know so broken and so um disappointed because they got married with the expectation that their spouse would show up and be there all in all and be there everything. And that is so dangerous because you know, you you each trying to figure out even your own, your own identity in the midst of being a you know newlywed. You're trying to figure out, like, all right, I know I got married, but what is this supposed to look like? What am I, you know, how am I supposed to be showing up and and that kind of thing? And so that's such a good point you brought up that yes, you need to have healthy relationships outside of your marriage relationship so that you're not expecting your spouse to fulfill every part of you. But you before we had our technical difficulty there, you mentioned that um uh Sherman said to you that hey, he's not able to make you happy. And Rob and I had a similar conversation probably around year five or year six. And I remember saying to him, Um, I think I just figured it out. You can't make me happy. Right. And it was almost like the brother took a breath, like, whew, like not trying to, you know, but that's why it's so I think it's so important that we each individually have not only our own relationships outside of the the marriage, but also our own relationship with God or whoever you call your higher power, those of you are who are not believers, you gotta have that um that connection to something bigger than yourselves definitely.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Um I I don't think that Shermans and my walk with God is exactly the same. Um would you? No, not at all. And that's okay. And again, giving each other the space to be able to do that. Um we don't drag each other up or down. It's not at the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah, but if we didn't have that relationship with God It would have been a lot comfortable, I'll study that. You know, they always turn off and pray, so it's good to go.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah, that's so good. Um, all right, so we're gonna take a little detour here. One of the challenges that you mentioned in your paper, in your um on your your uh application was um and before I say that, you talk as little about it or as much about it as you want. But there was a challenge that um that you both faced, and Heather, you chose to stay. So you decide between the two of you who wants to attend that one and how much of it you want to share.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

I'll let you tell the story. Do you know what we're talking about? I do. I'm not really sure what my husband decided to um go down a path that I didn't feel support. Um we even though I didn't support it, I still supported it, um, he ended up getting into trouble with the law and took a vacation to California for 11 months courtesy of law enforcement. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was during that time that honestly, Karen, I think our relationship got stronger. Um we were forced we well, we didn't have to we were forced to put in the writing things that we wanted to write are kind of a way to communicate. Um I went to see him and again seeing him so vulnerable and so um apologetic, was like we can get through this. It would have been really good for me just to say, you know what, I don't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Um I'm glad you didn't. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Well, and I'm glad I didn't. I'm glad you didn't either. Um, so I there's yeah, there's a lot. If someone wants to play can you top this, I think Shannon and I can win every single time because there's there's so much that we've been through. But again, we make a decision prior, divorce was not on the table.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

So uh I'm gonna interrupt you just a second there. I keep hearing you say that each time you took divorce off the table, and that's that's the key there. You make a decision going in, and so young couples, I would say if if you learn anything nothing else from Heather and Sherman today, is uh make the decision before going in that divorce is off the table. Absolutely that way you can show up even in those moments where their your spouse's humanness is being challenged.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Karen gave us, even though it was hard to do that, yes, it also gave us the freedom to be able to speak honestly with each other, uh, without that, oh my gosh, you know, he's gonna leave or I'm gonna leave, whatever it was. So it it sounds like it's not that big of a deal, but it was huge. It was really huge. And even though society doesn't support that, I mean there's everywhere. If you don't like the color of their hair, you can leave. It's not a big deal. You don't fall divorce, you know, all of that kind of stuff. That's not what God says. Yep. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Um, Sherman, I just think about um, you know, the the the um you being that vulnerable in those in those moments, it um vulnerability and guys don't often go together, you know, but there's just there's something about you that says, I want to stay in this marriage, I want to love this woman, I'm going to keep choosing this woman day after day. How do you communicate that in just regular everyday language to that one guy who's saying, I am tired, I can't do this anymore, I'm I'm I'm done, you know, because and I and I know you use the word flexibility a lot. Tell me what what what uh what what else you know comes up for you when you start thinking about all of the challenges that you guys have faced together?

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Well, when I'm talking to somebody about it, you know, especially to a guy that just must have doesn't know what he really wants to do, I say, so who's gonna do your laundry now? Who's gonna cook for you? Who's gonna help you through those hard times? You're gonna be on your own, crying by yourself. You need to think about what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Yeah. Yeah. You wanna you wanna talk a little bit about when you were on vacation? No, okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Don't care for it.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

That's fine. That's fine.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

But the the thing is that I'm here I'm here in partnership. What'd you say, Sharman? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah. It was not an enjoyable vacation.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

We returned that time that we're on vacation in California for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

And all men.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

That's that's um that's gotta be a challenging, um, challenging season. And it's, you know, I've seen I've seen marriages break apart and dissolve for less than that. So that is no, that is no minor thing. Being incarcerated is not a walk in the park. And I know I know you guys making fun, making fun of it, but we know that's not it. No, that's not um, that's not an easy decision. I'm sure during that season you were getting up every day for that 11 months, choosing him every single day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Karen, the so the other part when we talked earlier about having a relationship customer marriage, yeah. That's when you find out who the friends are. Exactly. Um family for me is not here in Las Vegas. Sherman and I are out here, our son is out here, but we don't have any other family out there. So there wasn't family to lean on. Um and again, I had friends, I had friends that we lost. Um, I had friends that couldn't got closer, and I had friends that are not friends anymore that couldn't understand why I wouldn't put up with that or decided to say um those in retrospect looking at those particular acquaintances. I'm gonna say they weren't very happy themselves. And again, I think that's something too for me. Sherman can't make me happy, I'm the only one that can do that. And you said I would get up to everything. What do I have to do for me? Would I do marriage?

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Yeah, yeah. And the the thing is there, you know, you said um I I know for a fact as as you know, as especially as married couples, we have to be so discerning of who we allow into our marriages as whether they're friends or family, who we allow to, you know, for us to pour, pour into, you know, or pour into us.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

There are still um I call them friends, there are still friends in our lives that don't go that hard. Um, that we knew before that happened. Um, but again, you know, that that shows you that when you have an intimate relationship with them, it I won't say it was superficial, but it was also there was no need to share a part of our lives with them. And that's okay. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

That's okay. Yeah, and the thing is when you when you go through, um, and and this is for that what one couple who is listening right now, when you're going through those challenges, you're always gonna have someone that can come alongside you and say, you know what, you need to walk away, you need to leave them. Don't put up with that foolishness, forget it, you know. You need you know, you're you're treating yourself like a doormat. Where's your self-worth? Where's your value? And all of those different things. On the flip side of that, you will have that, you'll still have that one friend that will tell you, what is God telling you to do right now? What is the word telling you to do right now? And we have to know when, you know, when when to embrace that information. Like they said, um, what is it, chew up the meat and spit out the bones, you know. You gotta know when to receive that information and when to reject it. Um, because I know people that have um people that have miserable marriages, they will tell you all of the stuff that they're dealing with and want you to, you know, to align your marriage with theirs. But hey, your marriage is between you and your spouse and God. And you you and I have to have that um, what's the word? We have to have that um, you know, that discernment to be able to say, yes, I'm receiving from this person, or no, I'm not receiving from this person. God, I this is not what I'm hearing you say, and being able to make that, you know, those healthy decisions for you and you alone. Yeah, that's that's that's so good. That's so good in the sense of um so many on so many levels. But I hear what coming what keeps coming up in my mind about you guys' relationship is the love and perseverance, because without that, you you had nothing. The first that making the decision that, hey, everything, I don't care what's going on, divorce is off the table. And then being able to walk that out, showing up in the hard times, not only when times are going great. You mentioned that money was not even an issue for you guys, but you know, and some people really think that money will answer all of their problems. But you, you know, you guys have proven, yeah, money may not have been an issue, but other things were. And making, again, making the hard decision that, hey, I am gonna stick around, I am gonna walk through this season with my spouse, with my partner, those things have to be established ahead of time. And I think some couples are going in with the mindset that, hey, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Not if you have not made the decision ahead of time. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

And that's again, that's what we have learned over the years, um, is going into we're not gonna experience everything, okay? You're not gonna have the previous experience. So when something comes up that we've never experienced before, and this was one of them, talk about it. There was a lot of talking going on, whether it was before it happened, uh before he left, um, didn't write any letters to each other, doing the visit, um, just being honest. Uh I was scared. I was scared, he was scared. We were really scared. Um he was again, I'm I'm very proud of him. For him to be able to say I'm scared. I'm sorry. Forgive me. And let's keep working this out. Yeah. Love is not a noun. Love is a verb. And you have to show that love.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

And I keep, you know, one of the things that's keep coming up for me with with um with Sherman, it didn't matter what else was going on. Sherman, it's your I think it's your determination to be able to say, I'm going to my wife and I'm going to ask for her forgiveness. I am going to admit what I did was wrong. And hey, this this is this is who I am. Let's work through this thing together. And I think a lot of for a lot of spouses, I don't think they're they're willing to humble themselves and like the word you keep using, be flexible enough to, hey, let me show up in this vulnerable state so that we can work on this together.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Yeah, there's not a lot of things that I would like to take on without the other.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. All right. I, oh my. Okay. So instead of me keeping you guys here all day, one final question that I will throw at you to kind of wrap all this up. What's one thing you wish someone had told you sooner in your marriage? Like, you know, going back, because you guys have been together 40 years. Yeah. Wow. That's 40 years. That's a whole lifetime. Um, but in the early years, what is one thing or a couple of things that you wish somebody had sat down and say, hey, do this before you get married?

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Well, for me, I wish somebody would have sat me down and said, Look, before you open your mouth, you need to think about what's really going on, because how you respond to a situation or whatever is can make a huge difference. And I didn't respond the right way all the time. What I've learned now, what I think about the the result of gonna be in anything less than yourself is not workable.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Karen, I think that for me, uh I think um again it someone if one if someone had said to me in the very beginning he's not gonna make you happy. Um you have to have that yourself. There's a difference between happiness and joy. I had that joy inside, but do not expect Skirman to be the one that's gonna make you happy all the time.

SPEAKER_03 47:58

What could what I see coming up between both of you too is the humor. You know my gosh, Karen, there's my gosh. You have to girl, we cannot be taking each other so seriously.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Your humor is huge.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Yeah, we make each other laugh often.

SPEAKER_01 48:15

Actually, Sherman makes me laugh probably, whether it's intentional or not. Um, but yeah, that's also one of the things that has been really important is just feeling comfortable enough with each other to just laugh. I mean, i sometimes it's like each in the middle of an argument, take a deep breath and we'll look at each other. It's like, what are you doing? You know, and then just start laughing. Start laughing about it.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

You know, that's a great way to get in an argument.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Yeah, it's important.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

That that's so good. That is so good. Oh my goodness. So we are out of time, but I just want to say thank you guys so very much for sitting down, taking time to actually have this hard conversation, sharing your story with me and with the audience. Until next time, thank you for listening to the State of Our Union and the fight to keep it. Thanks, Sherman and Heather.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Great, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Bye. Thanks.